Get your HBT Growlers, Shirts and Membership before the Rush!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > EZ Water Adjustment spreadsheet
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-09-2009, 12:12 AM   #121
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 22,277
Liked 1067 Times on 711 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by weetodd View Post
Really great spreadsheet, thanks for creating it and for also making it available for download. Also, thanks Bobby for the great videos.

One question on the initial numbers for mash water volume and sparge water volume. For example purposes let's say I mash with 5 gallons, sparge with 3 for 8 total preboil and expect a post boil volume of 6. The mash water one is easy--just the volume of water that is used in the initial mash (5). But, for the sparge water? In Bobby's videos, he uses the full amount of the sparge water (the additional 3 in my example) to get additions for the full pre-boil volume--so we're adding enough minerals to get the right ppm for 8 gallons. After thinking about this, doesn't the boil remove water but leave the minerals behind? (I'm not a scientist so not sure if the minerals would evaporate with the water vapor) So should the mineral additions calculate off of how much minerals we want with the finished beer (6 gallons vs. preboil of 8)

Thanks
I had the same concerns when I first started with this and thought about the concentration of minerals. The explanation that satisfied me was that we're trying to make water that you'd find in famous brewing cities. They start with that water and also concentrate the minerals down in the boil. When you're simply trying to dial in minimum levels, it's probably reasonable to undershoot a bit for that reason. I'm still learning.
__________________
BrewHardware.com has a new website. Please check it out and let me know what you think!
New 100% Stainless Steel Heating Elements are IN!
Chugger Pumps, Pump Kits, Camlocks, Sightglasses, Clear USA made Silicone Tubing, RIMS, Electric Install Parts, etc. Did you know we are also now a full service homebrew shop selling malt, hops, yeast (Wyeast), etc?
Bobby_M is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-09-2009, 10:59 PM   #122
weetodd
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Seattle. WA
Posts: 197
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Fair point and I agree. I am going to do a little research and let you know if I come up with anything interesting that would sway it either way. I tend to take the approach that it's probably not going to really matter that much as long as you have things straight for the mash.

__________________
weetodd is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-09-2009, 11:10 PM   #123
RonRock
Always Ready
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
RonRock's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Underwood, Iowa
Posts: 1,319
Liked 7 Times on 7 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Slightly off topic, after using the spreadsheet and creating water to match the brew, would I still want/need to use 5.2 mash stabilizer? Or would that defeat the purpose?

__________________
RonRock is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-10-2009, 01:07 AM   #124
LeeF
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Alabama
Posts: 143
Default

I believe it defeats the purpose. 5.2 alone will get the mash pH where you need it but does not manipulate the Cl:SO4 or other minerals considered important to the yeast/beer. This spreadsheet and brewing salts also gets the mash pH where you need it but also gives you a better knob for fine tuning the mineral content.

__________________
LeeF is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-10-2009, 02:10 AM   #125
-TH-
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zeeland, Michigan
Posts: 981
Liked 62 Times on 37 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by weetodd View Post
...I tend to take the approach that it's probably not going to really matter that much as long as you have things straight for the mash.
Bingo. The salts added to the boil are strictly for flavor purposes so I doubt you would be able to detect the difference of a few ppms in either direction - especially if you are within the recommended ranges. And besides, regardless of whether or not the ppms change after boiling, the recommended ranges pertain to the starting (or pre-boil) water levels and not post-boil levels.
__________________
TH

Builds, etc: E-Brewery | Pneumatic Bottle Capper | Fermentation Chamber | Stirplate | Bottle Cabinet
Water Spreadsheet: www.EZWaterCalculator.com
-TH- is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-13-2009, 02:56 PM   #126
Homercidal
Moderator
HBT_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Homercidal's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Reed City, MI
Posts: 24,436
Liked 2448 Times on 1725 Posts
Likes Given: 1402

Default

I just want to pipe in here and tell you that I really like the EZ Calculator. I've been reading up on water for a while and trying to wrap my mind around the nomographs and chemistry, and this thing has at least gotten me able to comprehend what I need to do to adjust my water, and a basic understanding of what's going on.

Hopefully it will be the start of a more complete understanding, but for now it's a great tool to get me going.

__________________
I see lonely ships upon the water. Better save the women and children first. Sail away with someone's daughter. Better save the women and children first.

Homer's Brew Log
Homercidal is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-24-2009, 10:09 PM   #127
oloroso27
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 18
Default

TH,

Great spreadsheet. Thank you.

I'm confused though about the RA calculation on the bottom. When using your spreadsheet, it seems as though a REALLY high mash water RA is needed for dark beers. I was brewing an Irish Stout yesterday (34 SRM), and came up with the following adjustment using your spreadsheet:

__________________________________________________ __________
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 5.8
Mg: 5.2
Na: 11
Cl: 0.9
SO4: 1.9
HCO3: 57

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4 / 3
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 7 / 0
CaSO4: 1 / 0.75
CaCl2: 1.5 / 0
MgSO4: 0.8 / 0.6
NaHCO3: 4 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 233 / 142
Mg: 10 / 10
Na: 83 / 52
Cl: 49 / 28
SO4: 59 / 59
CaCO3: 431 / 266

RA (mash only): 258 (26 to 31 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.48 (Very Bitter)
___________________________________________

It seemed strange to have a CaCO3 level of 431 in my mash water (which is what I needed to have for the spreadsheet to calculate an adjusted mash RA of 258 *best for 26 to 31 SRM*. Isn't this excessive? If I were in Dublin using their water (which is supposedly ideal for the style), wouldn't I only have a mash water RA of 175, giving me a spreadsheet calculated adjusted mash RA of 83 *best for 12 to 27 SRM.*

Maybe I am totally missing something? I guess I'm confused.

__________________
oloroso27 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-25-2009, 12:36 PM   #128
-TH-
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zeeland, Michigan
Posts: 981
Liked 62 Times on 37 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oloroso27 View Post
TH,

Great spreadsheet. Thank you.

I'm confused though about the RA calculation on the bottom. When using your spreadsheet, it seems as though a REALLY high mash water RA is needed for dark beers. I was brewing an Irish Stout yesterday (34 SRM), and came up with the following adjustment using your spreadsheet:

__________________________________________________ __________
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 5.8
Mg: 5.2
Na: 11
Cl: 0.9
SO4: 1.9
HCO3: 57

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4 / 3
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 7 / 0
CaSO4: 1 / 0.75
CaCl2: 1.5 / 0
MgSO4: 0.8 / 0.6
NaHCO3: 4 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 233 / 142
Mg: 10 / 10
Na: 83 / 52
Cl: 49 / 28
SO4: 59 / 59
CaCO3: 431 / 266

RA (mash only): 258 (26 to 31 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.48 (Very Bitter)
___________________________________________

It seemed strange to have a CaCO3 level of 431 in my mash water (which is what I needed to have for the spreadsheet to calculate an adjusted mash RA of 258 *best for 26 to 31 SRM*. Isn't this excessive? If I were in Dublin using their water (which is supposedly ideal for the style), wouldn't I only have a mash water RA of 175, giving me a spreadsheet calculated adjusted mash RA of 83 *best for 12 to 27 SRM.*

Maybe I am totally missing something? I guess I'm confused.
All I can say is that the spreadsheet uses Palmer's formula and nomograph. You are not the first to notice that on darker beers it seems the RA needs to get really high. I have seen others here post that they have had good success with leaving the RA a little below recommended on such beers. I am tempted to adjust the spreadsheet a bit but I am leery to veer from Palmer without doing a little more scientific research first.
__________________
TH

Builds, etc: E-Brewery | Pneumatic Bottle Capper | Fermentation Chamber | Stirplate | Bottle Cabinet
Water Spreadsheet: www.EZWaterCalculator.com
-TH- is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-13-2010, 09:20 PM   #129
kozydogg
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 32
Default

I'm sure this has been asked, but I can't find it. It gives "recommended" ranges, but most of the area specific profiles (london, munich...), have ranges outside of the recommended range. Which should i follow?

And where can I find recommended water profiles for many different styles of beer?

THanks

__________________
kozydogg is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-13-2010, 09:33 PM   #130
GilaMinumBeer
In yo' garage, steelin' yo parts.
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
GilaMinumBeer's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 48,868
Liked 4956 Times on 4522 Posts
Likes Given: 60

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kozydogg View Post
I'm sure this has been asked, but I can't find it. It gives "recommended" ranges, but most of the area specific profiles (london, munich...), have ranges outside of the recommended range. Which should i follow?

And where can I find recommended water profiles for many different styles of beer?

THanks
If you are trying to adjust your local water to a style specific benifit, you'd follow the recomended ranges as shown. However, if you are trying to match a regions profile then you try to match that profile as best as possible.

But there is no harm in trying to emulate a profile and tweaking it for the balance you seek.

Many regions are known for the style of beer they brew but, ironically, often the water is not ideal. And many breweries adjust their water accordingly. the profiles you will find won't be brewery profiles. They'll be water source profiles. And, as the brewery would, you'd adjust that to suite your desired results. For example, for Pilsen, you'd calculate to match profile and then adjust that to the proper RA balance.
__________________
GilaMinumBeer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Water Modification Videos, TH's Spreadsheet Bobby_M Brew Science 234 08-22-2011 04:44 PM
First try at water adjustment carp Brew Science 5 10-14-2009 01:32 AM
Water Adjustment? jgardner6 General Beer Discussion 5 08-11-2009 03:33 AM
Devising water recipes using Palmer's spreadsheet SpanishCastleAle General Techniques 0 02-22-2009 01:12 PM
water adjustment positiverpr Recipes/Ingredients 2 10-14-2008 04:09 PM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS