Spike Brewing 12.5 Conical Fermenter Giveaway - Enter Now!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > EBC -> SRM formula; Weyermann malts have wrong colors?

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-30-2009, 08:54 AM   #1
Piotr
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Poland, EU
Posts: 463
Liked 4 Times on 3 Posts

Default EBC -> SRM formula; Weyermann malts have wrong colors?

While trying to find substitute for Crystal 60 amongst Wyeyermann caramel malts, and I've noticed something strange: EBC values given for those malts don't match SRM/Lovibond values!

example: for Caramunich III , 160 EBC they give 60 Lovibond
http://www.browamator.pl/zdjecia/3/9/9/7198_Weyermann_Caramunich_III.pdf
While it should be (SRM=EBC*0.508) around 80 Lov

I contacted Weyermann via my LHBS, and I got the answer:

Andreas Richter, Weyermann quality director explains, that they use formula published by Sibel Institute,
Lovibond = EBC x 0,375 + 0,56

I see this formula here and there in the net, sometimes they explain that this is formula for old EBC norm, abandoned in 1991 and should not be used any more.

Can somebody back me up with some knowledge, which formula is correct, so that I could continue the discussion with Weyermann.

__________________

Last edited by Piotr; 03-30-2009 at 09:00 AM.
Piotr is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-30-2009, 11:37 AM   #2
remilard
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3,655
Liked 38 Times on 37 Posts

Default

Lovibond is not the same as SRM.

SRM was designed to match lovibond well at lower numbers but there is no linear relationship between them.

EBC does related to SRM linearly and, ergo not to lovibond linearly.

__________________
remilard is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-30-2009, 12:30 PM   #3
Edcculus
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 4,567
Liked 40 Times on 37 Posts

Default

I've never looked into it that much, but this is my understanding:

Lovibond is the degree to which malt is roasted
SRM is a measure of how dark or light a beer is (does not indicate color)

__________________
Edcculus is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-30-2009, 05:16 PM   #4
menschmaschine
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Delaware
Posts: 3,278
Liked 31 Times on 26 Posts

Default

Noonan gives this formula: [EBC = (°L X 2.65) - 1.2] and states:
Quote:
In the United States, color is expressed in terms of the Standard Research Method (SRM) values set by the ASBC or in °Lovibond, an older method of visual measurement upon which SRM is based (the two measurements are essentially equivalent).
__________________

END TRANSMISSION

menschmaschine is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-30-2009, 05:45 PM   #5
remilard
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3,655
Liked 38 Times on 37 Posts

Default

The Noonan relationship and the Siebel relationship are nearly identical.

Rearrange Noonan

Lov = .377EBC + .45

Compared to Siebel (via Weyermann)

Lov = .375EBC + .56

I would guess they are based on the same data and the Siebel formula was designed to be used by hand, using 3/8 as a convenient multiple.

__________________
remilard is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-30-2009, 06:18 PM   #6
Piotr
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Poland, EU
Posts: 463
Liked 4 Times on 3 Posts

Default

Noonan? Siebel? It is hard to argue with them...
I'm suprised that two completely different equations exist and nobody noticed it before. A few references for other equation:

wikipedia : Standard Reference Method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
beersmith (after Ray Daniels) : Beer Color: Understanding SRM, Lovibond and EBC | Home Brewing Beer Blog by BeerSmith
seme other *pedia: Standard Reference Method - Zymipedia - Everything Beer, Wine, Spirits and Fermentation

__________________
Piotr is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-31-2009, 08:59 AM   #7
Piotr
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Poland, EU
Posts: 463
Liked 4 Times on 3 Posts

Default

I've found some sort of explanation of the phenomenon:

EBC controversy

"However many maltsters and brewers still, especially in the US, use and reference to the older SRM-EBC conversion. So for convenience and to avoid some problems the older EBC values were used – hard to break old habits"

Does it mean, that in USA you use differnent EBC's than in Europe?

__________________
Piotr is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-07-2010, 07:59 PM   #8
Mr_B
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

You all seem to be ignoring the only answer that was right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by remilard View Post
Lovibond is not the same as SRM.

SRM was designed to match lovibond well at lower numbers but there is no linear relationship between them.

EBC does related to SRM linearly and, ergo not to lovibond linearly.
The Lovibond system was designed before the spectrometer was invented. To use it, one had to compare a vial of beer to a colored glass slide (with the naked eye).

SRM is ALMOST identical because they chose to measure SRM at a 420nm wavelength.

SRM=1.3546 x Lovibond - 0.76

EBC=SRM x 1.97 (or SRM=EBC x 0.508)

Therefor:
EBC = 1.97(1.3546 x Lovibond -0.76)
or
EBC = 2.66 x Lovibond - 1.5
And
Lovibond = EBC x 1/2.66 + 1.5/2.66
or
Lovibond = EBC x 0.375 + 0.56

Exactly what Weyermann said!
__________________
Mr_B is offline
Saluci Likes This 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-07-2010, 08:35 PM   #9
SumnerH
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Alexandria, VA, USA
Posts: 2,058
Liked 25 Times on 22 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotr View Post
I've found some sort of explanation of the phenomenon:

EBC controversy

"However many maltsters and brewers still, especially in the US, use and reference to the older SRM-EBC conversion. So for convenience and to avoid some problems the older EBC values were used – hard to break old habits"

Does it mean, that in USA you use differnent EBC's than in Europe?
The USA doesn't use EBC, we use SRM/Lovibond.

Europe has historically used 2 different EBC scales (IIRC, the newer one came about around 1991). You need to know which one is being used in order to know how to convert it.
__________________

On deck: Little Bo Pils, Bretta Off Dead (Brett pale)
Secondary: Oude Bruin, Red Sky at Morning (Sour brown ale)
On tap: Saison Duphunk (sour), Amarillo Slim (IPA), Earl White (ginger/bergamot wit)
Bottled: Number 8 (Belgian Strong Dark Ale), Eternale (Barleywine), Ancho Villa (Ancho/pasilla/chocolate/cinnamon RIS), Oak smoked porter (1/2 maple bourbon oaked, 1/2 apple brandy oaked)

SumnerH is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-20-2013, 07:09 PM   #10
loetz
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 119
Liked 3 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

Castle Malting from Belgium has a nice EBC SRM converter on their webpage that seems to be pretty accurate in my experience.

http://www.castlemalting.com/Default.asp?N=Calculator&ID=13&Language=English

__________________
loetz is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
my beers 2 colors... why? justPIZOW Fermentation & Yeast 2 08-31-2009 03:08 AM
Munich Extract: Weyermann vs Blends? sd_tom Extract Brewing 1 08-14-2009 07:46 PM
lot analysis data for Weyermann malts? Kaiser Recipes/Ingredients 15 03-05-2009 03:53 PM
Weyermann Premium Pilsener Malt Piotr Recipes/Ingredients 2 02-09-2009 09:35 PM
Weyermann Carafa III Dehusked menschmaschine Recipes/Ingredients 7 10-22-2008 09:44 PM