Home Brew Forums (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum.php)
-   Brew Science (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/)
-   -   EBC -> SRM formula; Weyermann malts have wrong colors? (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/ebc-srm-formula-weyermann-malts-have-wrong-colors-111374/)

 Piotr 03-30-2009 08:54 AM

EBC -> SRM formula; Weyermann malts have wrong colors?

While trying to find substitute for Crystal 60 amongst Wyeyermann caramel malts, and I've noticed something strange: EBC values given for those malts don't match SRM/Lovibond values!

example: for Caramunich III , 160 EBC they give 60 Lovibond
http://www.browamator.pl/zdjecia/3/9...munich_III.pdf
While it should be (SRM=EBC*0.508) around 80 Lov

I contacted Weyermann via my LHBS, and I got the answer:

Andreas Richter, Weyermann quality director explains, that they use formula published by Sibel Institute,
Lovibond = EBC x 0,375 + 0,56

I see this formula here and there in the net, sometimes they explain that this is formula for old EBC norm, abandoned in 1991 and should not be used any more.

Can somebody back me up with some knowledge, which formula is correct, so that I could continue the discussion with Weyermann.

 remilard 03-30-2009 11:37 AM

Lovibond is not the same as SRM.

SRM was designed to match lovibond well at lower numbers but there is no linear relationship between them.

EBC does related to SRM linearly and, ergo not to lovibond linearly.

 Edcculus 03-30-2009 12:30 PM

I've never looked into it that much, but this is my understanding:

Lovibond is the degree to which malt is roasted
SRM is a measure of how dark or light a beer is (does not indicate color)

 menschmaschine 03-30-2009 05:16 PM

Noonan gives this formula: [EBC = (°L X 2.65) - 1.2] and states:
Quote:
 In the United States, color is expressed in terms of the Standard Research Method (SRM) values set by the ASBC or in °Lovibond, an older method of visual measurement upon which SRM is based (the two measurements are essentially equivalent).

 remilard 03-30-2009 05:45 PM

The Noonan relationship and the Siebel relationship are nearly identical.

Rearrange Noonan

Lov = .377EBC + .45

Compared to Siebel (via Weyermann)

Lov = .375EBC + .56

I would guess they are based on the same data and the Siebel formula was designed to be used by hand, using 3/8 as a convenient multiple.

 Piotr 03-30-2009 06:18 PM

Noonan? Siebel? It is hard to argue with them...
I'm suprised that two completely different equations exist and nobody noticed it before. A few references for other equation:

wikipedia : Standard Reference Method - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
beersmith (after Ray Daniels) : Beer Color: Understanding SRM, Lovibond and EBC | Home Brewing Beer Blog by BeerSmith
seme other *pedia: Standard Reference Method - Zymipedia - Everything Beer, Wine, Spirits and Fermentation

 Piotr 03-31-2009 08:59 AM

I've found some sort of explanation of the phenomenon:

EBC controversy

"However many maltsters and brewers still, especially in the US, use and reference to the older SRM-EBC conversion. So for convenience and to avoid some problems the older EBC values were used – hard to break old habits"

Does it mean, that in USA you use differnent EBC's than in Europe?

 Mr_B 07-07-2010 07:59 PM

You all seem to be ignoring the only answer that was right.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by remilard (Post 1228109) Lovibond is not the same as SRM. SRM was designed to match lovibond well at lower numbers but there is no linear relationship between them. EBC does related to SRM linearly and, ergo not to lovibond linearly.
The Lovibond system was designed before the spectrometer was invented. To use it, one had to compare a vial of beer to a colored glass slide (with the naked eye).

SRM is ALMOST identical because they chose to measure SRM at a 420nm wavelength.

SRM=1.3546 x Lovibond - 0.76

EBC=SRM x 1.97 (or SRM=EBC x 0.508)

Therefor:
EBC = 1.97(1.3546 x Lovibond -0.76)
or
EBC = 2.66 x Lovibond - 1.5
And
Lovibond = EBC x 1/2.66 + 1.5/2.66
or
Lovibond = EBC x 0.375 + 0.56

Exactly what Weyermann said!

 SumnerH 07-07-2010 08:35 PM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Piotr (Post 1230330) I've found some sort of explanation of the phenomenon: EBC controversy "However many maltsters and brewers still, especially in the US, use and reference to the older SRM-EBC conversion. So for convenience and to avoid some problems the older EBC values were used – hard to break old habits" Does it mean, that in USA you use differnent EBC's than in Europe?
The USA doesn't use EBC, we use SRM/Lovibond.

Europe has historically used 2 different EBC scales (IIRC, the newer one came about around 1991). You need to know which one is being used in order to know how to convert it.

 loetz 01-20-2013 07:09 PM

Castle Malting from Belgium has a nice EBC SRM converter on their webpage that seems to be pretty accurate in my experience.

http://www.castlemalting.com/Default...nguage=English

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:28 PM.