Ss Brewing Technologies Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > D2 syrup composition - What the hell is it?
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-18-2012, 07:58 PM   #21
Nateo
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bennett Springs, MO
Posts: 2,055
Liked 37 Times on 29 Posts
Likes Given: 35

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryane View Post
At elevated pH (11) maillard reactions will occur albeit a tad slow, at room temperature, but when you are literally processing tons of sugar, these slow reactions have the potential to produce quite a bit of maillard products
At 11 you will get rapid coloration (within minutes) at anything over 100*F.
My source? My stove top.
__________________

To paraphrase Dr. England - "Off-flavors smooth with time. So do mountains. Brew it right from the start!"

My blogsite: http://nateobrew.blogspot.com/

Nateo is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-18-2012, 08:14 PM   #22
c12h22o11dude
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 12
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

The only reference I have is 20 years in the sugar business. Carbonation vs. Carbonatation is symantics, although I have never heard many people in the trade say carbonation, sounds like we are making beer or soda lol.
Yes, cabonatation reaction is CaOH + CO2 ---> CaCO3 + H2O, when the calcium carbonate is formed it has the unique ability to attract colorants and ash. These impurities are trapped in the calcium carbonate crystal which is then filtered out by mechanical filtration.
Back to the maillard reaction, this reaction cannot occur on sucrose, it only occurs on reducing sugars, once sucrose is destroyed to glucose of fructose then it could occur as they are reducing sugars. Again this is never done in a sugar factory. Invert (reducing sugars) run around 0.01% in a factory, any higher levels the factory would not stay in business very long.
As for the candi syrups they have alot of invert in them, which I believe is intentionally done, I am not sure if it is done to keep the candi syrup shelf stable until it is sold or its easier for the yeast to work on. Although I know yeast have no trouble eating pure sucrose, so my guess is to make it shelf stable without preservatives.
In the factory you can see the difference between 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th run-off syrups. They get darker in color, they taste different (the impurities are being concentrated), the sucrose goes down, and impurities go up.

__________________
c12h22o11dude is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-18-2012, 08:52 PM   #23
ReverseApacheMaster
Registered User
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Keller, Texas
Posts: 4,887
Liked 229 Times on 192 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryane View Post
Again I'll ask for a reference, youll have to forgive me if Im skeptical at just taking your word for it.
I seem to recall finding more but I think this is a reasonable start. So if you look at what Castle Malting sells to homebrew shops and breweries they range from burnt sugar to caramelized sugar to syrups I assume are more D2-like.

http://www.castlemalting.com/CastleM...nguage=English

One of the companies that provides a lot of these products is belgosuc, which lists many of its products in this brochure. Note in describing their processes that they refer to these as "semi-refined" products. Also see in the last page describing their products that the products they produce for breweries are listed as a mixed syrup product.

http://www.belgosuc.be/images/files/...elgosuc_en.pdf

Here is the technical sheet on one of their products. I'm not sure if this is a brewing product or not but it matches the specs on other products I've seen referred to in brewing literature (sorry, I don't have cites on hand for those) but note that the sugar source is wheat hydrolysis.

http://www.hbingredients.co.uk/specsheets/849.pdf

Here's another belgosuc product, I believe this is among the products they make for breweries. Note that it is 70% maltose.

https://www.vantagehouse.com/VAN1/VA...ns/S.GLU25.pdf

It seems D2 is Belgosuc's dark Candimic 78% syrup: http://panjiva.com/Ravico-NV-Candyparty/1649148

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any specs on it.
__________________
ReverseApacheMaster is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-19-2012, 03:12 AM   #24
ryane
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Washington
Posts: 780
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReverseApacheMaster View Post
I seem to recall finding more but I think this is a reasonable start. So if you look at what Castle Malting sells to homebrew shops and breweries they range from burnt sugar to caramelized sugar to syrups I assume are more D2-like.

http://www.castlemalting.com/CastleM...nguage=English

One of the companies that provides a lot of these products is belgosuc, which lists many of its products in this brochure. Note in describing their processes that they refer to these as "semi-refined" products. Also see in the last page describing their products that the products they produce for breweries are listed as a mixed syrup product.

http://www.belgosuc.be/images/files/...elgosuc_en.pdf

Here is the technical sheet on one of their products. I'm not sure if this is a brewing product or not but it matches the specs on other products I've seen referred to in brewing literature (sorry, I don't have cites on hand for those) but note that the sugar source is wheat hydrolysis.

http://www.hbingredients.co.uk/specsheets/849.pdf

Here's another belgosuc product, I believe this is among the products they make for breweries. Note that it is 70% maltose.

https://www.vantagehouse.com/VAN1/VA...ns/S.GLU25.pdf

It seems D2 is Belgosuc's dark Candimic 78% syrup: http://panjiva.com/Ravico-NV-Candyparty/1649148

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any specs on it.
RAM - thouse were interesting to take a look at, but at the heart of it those seem to be a very different product, glucose syrup made from wheat isnt quite the same as a sugar syrup made from sugar beets. That aside, have you tried any of those syrups personally?

As to the sugar composition of D2 or D, Im working on getting some time on an hplc-ms to run a sample and get an idea of the relative proportions, until then I'll hold my tongue a bit
ryane is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-19-2012, 09:40 AM   #25
c12h22o11dude
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 12
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Ryane, just to be clear, I am not trying to stir things up here. I am just sharing my experience in my industry. We blend syrups and molsses all the time for customers depending on their need. Alot of these blends are blended to give the customer a product that taste and looks good. All these syrups have different flavors, purity, and non-sugar solids, and colors. Your comment about the high volume is absolutely right. All sugar factories are very high volume, the company I work for owns most of the largest in the United States. For that reason I dont think many companies would go out of their way to make a "special" process for making candi syrup (small business in the scheme of things), they would just use the syrup/syrups they have on hand to make blends or use it straight. We also make invert sugars, from 100% invert down to 50% invert. It could be made at any % as we have process controls to run that process. I have not made any beer with syrups from our plant but have tasted these syrups for many years, I have only tasted one or two candi syrups but they taste like these intermediate run-off syups inverted.

__________________
c12h22o11dude is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-19-2012, 12:43 PM   #26
caiafa
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Posts: 68
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

I've had great success using a sugar solution (sucrose - beet sugar) heated around 130°C which had some nitrogen source added (Ammonium bicarbonate, DAP) and a fairly strong base (either Na2CO3 made from NaHCO3 by heating in the oven, or food grade NaOH). You just add enough base to drive the solution to pH 9-10 range and the keep it heated a while longer.

The syrup I've made it's full of flavor (nuts, dates, bread, caramel, toffee) and it's better than dark Belgian syrup bought from Belgium.

__________________
caiafa is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-19-2012, 12:52 PM   #27
Nateo
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bennett Springs, MO
Posts: 2,055
Liked 37 Times on 29 Posts
Likes Given: 35

Default

I've become pretty convinced homemade candi syrup can't easily be made in a single vessel. I've been able to get the dark fruit flavors (plums/raisins, etc), burnt sugar flavors, and dark chocolate flavors, but never all together. Right now I'm trying to maximize the individual flavors I'm looking for, then trying to figure out a ratio to blend them.

__________________

To paraphrase Dr. England - "Off-flavors smooth with time. So do mountains. Brew it right from the start!"

My blogsite: http://nateobrew.blogspot.com/

Nateo is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-19-2012, 09:22 PM   #28
ryane
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Washington
Posts: 780
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nateo View Post
I've been able to get the dark fruit flavors (plums/raisins, etc), burnt sugar flavors, and dark chocolate flavors, but never all together.
You know Ive noticed the same thing, problem with having to blend though is its a PITA to have to make several types and then mix.
__________________
RyanBrews - check out all the bread/funk/pickling/cheese and other crazy things I try...
ryane is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-19-2012, 11:28 PM   #29
Nateo
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Bennett Springs, MO
Posts: 2,055
Liked 37 Times on 29 Posts
Likes Given: 35

Default

If sugardude is right, and they're taking run-off syrups at different stages in the processing and inverting it, then it's most likely a mix of some sort. I know it's a PITA but I've done enough trial batches (100+ now) to be convinced you can't get all the flavors you want from one perfect combination of ingredients, pH and temp.

__________________

To paraphrase Dr. England - "Off-flavors smooth with time. So do mountains. Brew it right from the start!"

My blogsite: http://nateobrew.blogspot.com/

Nateo is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-19-2012, 11:58 PM   #30
ryane
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Washington
Posts: 780
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nateo View Post
If sugardude is right, and they're taking run-off syrups at different stages in the processing and inverting it, then it's most likely a mix of some sort. I know it's a PITA but I've done enough trial batches (100+ now) to be convinced you can't get all the flavors you want from one perfect combination of ingredients, pH and temp.
Im pretty sure the syrup is being taken off at different stages, the repeated heating/cooling is most likely from the syrup being reintroduced to start the process again

Im also thinking they arent inverting the syrup, even if 0.1% of the sugar is inverted in the process, this will be a fairly significant amount when your processing tons a day.

When I did my trials I didnt invert the sugar before heating it at an elevated temp and got significant color change, so some inversion still happens even at the elevated ph(used to slow inversion) my "syrup" formed a hard slightly plastic blob afterwards

have you found a source for other amino acids? Ive thought about using nutritional supplements but I dunno about fillers
__________________
RyanBrews - check out all the bread/funk/pickling/cheese and other crazy things I try...
ryane is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Water composition Marshi Brew Science 2 02-06-2012 09:01 PM
home made barley malt syrup (extract) bidule Brew Science 14 03-28-2011 08:18 AM
The effect of brewing water and grist composition on the pH of the mash Kaiser Brew Science 14 02-08-2011 08:01 PM
Canned & hopped syrup extract enzymes? Andri Brew Science 12 03-25-2009 03:43 AM