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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > D2 syrup composition - What the hell is it?

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Old 03-04-2012, 01:49 AM   #11
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Try e-mailing them yet? You might be surprised how open they might be about their process...

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Old 03-04-2012, 01:26 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by SPLASTiK View Post
Try e-mailing them yet? You might be surprised how open they might be about their process...
Dark candi??

They dont tell anyone anything about the process, its not something you can patent, so if they told anyone, someone else could make the same product
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Old 03-11-2012, 04:13 PM   #13
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There are lots of process aids you can use to make a product that you don't have to disclose. So while it's legal for them to say things like "100% beet sugar" it's not intellectually honest.

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Old 03-18-2012, 01:59 AM   #14
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To add a couploe things:
The flavors you get from candi sugar are not really from heating the sugar or camelizing it. Both these are frowned upon in a sugar factory (the object is to make a white product). The flavors are from the way sugar is made. The process removes colorants and other impurities (flavors). Once the process has removed impurities the sugar is crystallized it goes to the centrifigal station. At the centrigal station the run-off syrup gets re-crystalized in vacuum pans, this sugar is then spun in a 2nd centrifgal, the second run-off syrup is then spun off. This is repeated several times until is is un-economic to extract any more sucrose. The final molasses is sold as animal feed or for other products. This is not the syrup that is sold a candi sugar (it would taste bad). I believe candi sugar is 3rd or 4th run-off syrup.
Traditionally candi sugar is beet sugar, I think that beacuse that is where most of the European sugar comes from. Sugar beets are grown in colder areas, not many cane refineries there.
The run-off syrups are then inverted, why? Pure liquid sucrose has a very short shelf life, it will get yeast, mold, etc growing in it. Invert syrups are very shelf stable.
Inverting sucrose is done several ways in a sugar plant, enzymes, acid, or heating. The last two would drive the color up. This process would be very hard to replicate, camelizing sucrose will give it flavor but noe that "true" flavor found in run-off syrups.

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Old 03-18-2012, 04:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c12h22o11dude View Post
To add a couploe things:
The flavors you get from candi sugar are not really from heating the sugar or camelizing it. Both these are frowned upon in a sugar factory (the object is to make a white product).
I agree, they also do not want to invert the sugar because that is product lost. Caramelization I believe, is also not the source of the flavors, Maillard reactions are

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The flavors are from the way sugar is made. The process removes colorants and other impurities (flavors). Once the process has removed impurities the sugar is crystallized it goes to the centrifigal station. At the centrigal station the run-off syrup gets re-crystalized in vacuum pans, this sugar is then spun in a 2nd centrifgal, the second run-off syrup is then spun off. This is repeated several times until is is un-economic to extract any more sucrose.
I think you are vastly over simplifying the process, and would be curious to see your source. If you look at the EPA's process flow chart for sugar beet processing, there are several heaters in-line before the centrifuge or vacuum pans. While the pH is high from the milk of lime, and its still warm (in line heaters) this is where the flavor is made. Not all impurities are caught, which is why there are secondary and polishing filters that remove the product that develops color. The centrifuge is used to remove syrup from the crystallized product
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:31 PM   #16
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I did over simplify the process, didnt want to write a novel lol. Just to clarify a point, no "flavors" are made in the process. Not by caramelization or the maillard reaction. A better way to think of it is the concentration of impurities (flavors) increases through centrifugal run-off syups. Your diagram does not give detail here, the point the syrup is spun off the centrifigals and goes back to the pans is repeated several times. Usually up to 5 times. Each time the impurities are concentrated in the syrup. The impurities go up and the sucrose content goes down.

Even with all the heaters you see and the vacuum pans, no sucrose is destroyed by maillard reaction or caramelization. All the heating is done at "safe" temps.

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Old 03-18-2012, 06:23 PM   #17
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Even with all the heaters you see and the vacuum pans, no sucrose is destroyed by maillard reaction or caramelization. All the heating is done at "safe" temps.
What is your source for any of this?

At elevated pH (11) maillard reactions will occur albeit a tad slow, at room temperature, but when you are literally processing tons of sugar, these slow reactions have the potential to produce quite a bit of maillard products
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Old 03-18-2012, 06:39 PM   #18
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The introduction of slaked lime prior to carbonatation (not cabonation as the EPA diagram states) does create a high ph Sucrose/Lime mixture. The amount of time this high pH occurs is a very very short period. The pH is immediately driven down by the CO2introduced. The destruction of sucrose here, Maillard or caramelization, is very very low compared to other parts of the process. The goal of any sugar factory is to avoid any destruction by heat and it simply does not occur (on any scale worth mentionig that would contribute to flavor.)

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Old 03-18-2012, 06:46 PM   #19
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There seems to be several companies that provide similar products in Europe. Some are more forthcoming than others. Some of the products have spec sheets that show the syrup is mostly maltose and fructose, which tells me there's enzymatic breakdown and the syrup is created before the maltose is broken down further. Other spec sheets show no maltose and from what I understand it's some form of a glucose syrup. I'm not sure which variety is D2.

I also believe the spec sheet on D2 is deceptive. I don't believe in the magic processing from refined sugar in super secret vacuum processors. I believe it begins life as an unrefined sugar and gets heat processed into something tasty. I do think there is a complex process involved, possibly with multiple staged heating. The best way to crack the secret would be to start with whole sugar beets but I wouldn't know where to get any in these parts.

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Old 03-18-2012, 07:47 PM   #20
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There seems to be several companies that provide similar products in Europe. Some are more forthcoming than others. Some of the products have spec sheets that show the syrup is mostly maltose and fructose, which tells me there's enzymatic breakdown and the syrup is created before the maltose is broken down further. Other spec sheets show no maltose and from what I understand it's some form of a glucose syrup. I'm not sure which variety is D2.

I also believe the spec sheet on D2 is deceptive. I don't believe in the magic processing from refined sugar in super secret vacuum processors. I believe it begins life as an unrefined sugar and gets heat processed into something tasty. I do think there is a complex process involved, possibly with multiple staged heating. The best way to crack the secret would be to start with whole sugar beets but I wouldn't know where to get any in these parts.
Again I'll ask for a reference, youll have to forgive me if Im skeptical at just taking your word for it.

As far at the difference between carbonatation and carbonation, the EPA doc is correct, there is a carbonation step, where co2 is injected into the tank to form precipitates (co2 + lime) that trap impurities (which is what your referring to carbonatation)

http://www.sbreb.org/brochures/SugarCoop/ (ctrl F then type carbonation)

I still think that while they want to minimize darkening and inversion that on a scale that is processing tons a day that it is inevitable, and unless you can provide some references I remain extremely skeptical
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