Electric Brewing Supply 30A BCS Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > D2 syrup composition - What the hell is it?
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-02-2012, 11:33 PM   #1
ryane
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Washington
Posts: 792
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default D2 syrup composition - What the hell is it?

So, I think I came up with a much better way of making homemade candy syrup (another topic altogether) And there has been some resistance to this method. Why I cant say, but it has made a lot of people question what is actually in D2.

If you look at the spec sheet there's pretty much nothing to it other than sugar. I think the spec sheet is bogus, so after some discussion I thought it could be useful to analyze some d2 and see what I get

Right now Im going to look at the following, (should be done by the end of next week)

Ash content
Fe
Ca
Mg
Total Nitrogen
Fructose:Glucose:sucrose ratio

Is there anything else anyone can think of that might be useful in closing the knowledge gap as far as what D2 really is? BTW If you cant tell I have access to a large range of research equipment, so just about any idea is possible

If your interested in reading my ideas about candy syrup look in my signature, but in this thread I dont really want to debate the method, rather I just want to hear ideas about learning more about D2

ryane is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-03-2012, 12:08 AM   #2
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 6,147
Liked 618 Times on 511 Posts
Likes Given: 19

Default

Never heard of the stuff but according to their spec sheet it is caramelized beet sugar. If, as you seem to suspect. there is more to it than caramelized beet sugar then I suppose you could run a sugar spectrum on it looking for things other than sucrose, glucose and fructose. These would need to be compared to the spectrum of beet sugar. Total nitrogen would be telling as total nitrogen in the product higher than total nitrogen in beet sugar would suggest that some amino acid, polypeptide or protein has been added to precipitate the formation of Maillard products.

__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-03-2012, 03:11 PM   #3
ryane
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Washington
Posts: 792
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Huh you must not brew many belgian beers to never have heard of D2

As far as whats in there, I think its basically beet molasses, although some are arguing that its made from refined sugar rather than a byproduct of the refining process

as far as the sugar spectrum that gets pretty tricky, you have to have a fairly specialized instrument set up just for sugars, and while I have access to an hplc ms, its really only set up to do the fructose:glucose:sucrose measurements, and even that is gonna take some work.

Is there any other type of measurement on the syrup itself that could be worthwhile in defining what d2 really is, so that we might get closer in making it at home?

ryane is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-03-2012, 04:44 PM   #4
DaleHair
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 156
Liked 8 Times on 6 Posts
Likes Given: 8

Default

I think it is invert sugar that has then been caramelized, it is most likely beet sugar. Google invert sugar

__________________
DaleHair is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-03-2012, 04:55 PM   #5
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 6,147
Liked 618 Times on 511 Posts
Likes Given: 19

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryane View Post
Huh you must not brew many belgian beers to never have heard of D2
Never brewed one (well, I used to do wits)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryane View Post
As far as whats in there, I think its basically beet molasses, although some are arguing that its made from refined sugar rather than a byproduct of the refining process
According to their spec sheet it's caramelized beet sugar. Molasses is the stuff rejected in the refining process. You know what that tastes like (or can easily find out). If D2 tastes different then you can tentatively put the molasses suspicion aside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryane View Post
as far as the sugar spectrum that gets pretty tricky, you have to have a fairly specialized instrument set up just for sugars, and while I have access to an hplc ms, its really only set up to do the fructose:glucose:sucrose measurements, and even that is gonna take some work.
I only suggested that as you said you had fancy gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryane View Post
Is there any other type of measurement on the syrup itself that could be worthwhile in defining what d2 really is, so that we might get closer in making it at home?
TKN based on the thought that there might be Maillard compounds in it.
__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-03-2012, 05:43 PM   #6
ryane
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Washington
Posts: 792
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post
According to their spec sheet it's caramelized beet sugar. Molasses is the stuff rejected in the refining process. You know what that tastes like (or can easily find out). If D2 tastes different then you can tentatively put the molasses suspicion aside.

TKN based on the thought that there might be Maillard compounds in it.
I understand what the spec sheet says, but Im thinking this is the byproduct from the refining process. Beet molasses isnt something that readily available in the US. There is a german beet syrup that I think tastes similar to D or D2, but is missing some of the chocolate notes, and the german syrup as far as I know is a slightly diluted beet molasses

Caramelization doesnt generate the types of flavors I think we are seeing in D2, lots of what most people associate with caramelization is actually browning reactions that take amine groups from the milk thats added to make caramels. If you make the syrup like I outline in the post but omit the yeast nutrient you basically get a coloring syrup that will add NO flavor to the beer.

I think the source of the nitrogen in the d2 is actually proteins in the molasses that are removed during the refining process.

Repeated heating and cooling cycles are used to crystalize sucrose and remove it from the mix, each time the molasses is more and more concentrated. Additionally this most likely generates more and more maillard reactions increasing the depth of flavor. What Im trying to do here is try and get the best handle I can on what is actually in D2. I think if we better understand whats in it, we can better replicate it

TKN - I am doing this one, hopefully to get a good idea whats in there
ryane is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-03-2012, 06:20 PM   #7
dwarven_stout
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 1,629
Liked 34 Times on 32 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default

Off topic, but related:

Did you try the "old" way of making syrup using DAP, or did you just try the Wyeast nutrient? I found a world of difference between the two. DAP gives me fruit, then vanilla and caramel, then nuts, depending on cooking time. Wyeast nutrient gave me burnt sugar and a hard to clean pan.

__________________

"I can't believe how many people think Air Lock is pronounced Hydrometer." -BigKahuna
"If you gave me a beer with placenta in it without telling me I would kick you in the nuts." -ODaniel
"We be in a big hurry for dope beer with much alcamahol and flavor, quality, balance, and aroma don't matter. We just wantz to be druck, u know?" -Yooper

dwarven_stout is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-03-2012, 06:47 PM   #8
ryane
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Washington
Posts: 792
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwarven_stout View Post
Off topic, but related:

Did you try the "old" way of making syrup using DAP, or did you just try the Wyeast nutrient? I found a world of difference between the two. DAP gives me fruit, then vanilla and caramel, then nuts, depending on cooking time. Wyeast nutrient gave me burnt sugar and a hard to clean pan.
Yes, that was the way I always did it in the past, the only reason I went with the yeast nutrient this time is that I was out of DAP

the problem with the "old way" is your fighting chemistry. While adding a bit of acid will increase the conversion of sucrose to glucose and fructose, the acid slows to a halt the maillard reactions and impedes caramelization, all the while speading up pyrolysis (burnt sugar flavors)

This isnt particularily directed at you, but I dont understand the resistance to at least try this out, in another thread on another site Ive been met with outright hostility about this.

If our goal is something like D2, shouldnt we be trying to at least mimic the process? beet sugar is refined in an alkaline environment, inversion of sucrose means lost product to sugar refiners.
__________________
RyanBrews - check out all the bread/funk/pickling/cheese and other crazy things I try...
ryane is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-03-2012, 06:52 PM   #9
dwarven_stout
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 1,629
Liked 34 Times on 32 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryane View Post
Yes, that was the way I always did it in the past, the only reason I went with the yeast nutrient this time is that I was out of DAP

the problem with the "old way" is your fighting chemistry. While adding a bit of acid will increase the conversion of sucrose to glucose and fructose, the acid slows to a halt the maillard reactions and impedes caramelization, all the while speading up pyrolysis (burnt sugar flavors)
Ah. I never added acid. Just beet sugar, heat and DAP.

Quote:
This isnt particularily directed at you, but I dont understand the resistance to at least try this out, in another thread on another site Ive been met with outright hostility about this.

If our goal is something like D2, shouldnt we be trying to at least mimic the process? beet sugar is refined in an alkaline environment, inversion of sucrose means lost product to sugar refiners.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I'll get some lime and try it out someday when I have time and a need for syrup.

I actually have a friend who is a process engineer in a sugar beet refinery near here. I might check with him and see if they have a comparable waste product and if so what they do with it.
__________________

"I can't believe how many people think Air Lock is pronounced Hydrometer." -BigKahuna
"If you gave me a beer with placenta in it without telling me I would kick you in the nuts." -ODaniel
"We be in a big hurry for dope beer with much alcamahol and flavor, quality, balance, and aroma don't matter. We just wantz to be druck, u know?" -Yooper

dwarven_stout is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-03-2012, 07:35 PM   #10
ryane
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Washington
Posts: 792
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwarven_stout View Post
I actually have a friend who is a process engineer in a sugar beet refinery near here. I might check with him and see if they have a comparable waste product and if so what they do with it.
I think most beet molasses goes to feed cattle etc, but I could be wrong, it would be interesting though if you could possibly get some of it from him, dilute it a tad and see how it tasted, better yet would be if you could send it my way and I could run the same tests on it to get a baseline to compare d2 to
__________________
RyanBrews - check out all the bread/funk/pickling/cheese and other crazy things I try...
ryane is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Water composition Marshi Brew Science 2 02-06-2012 09:01 PM
home made barley malt syrup (extract) bidule Brew Science 14 03-28-2011 08:18 AM
The effect of brewing water and grist composition on the pH of the mash Kaiser Brew Science 14 02-08-2011 08:01 PM
Canned & hopped syrup extract enzymes? Andri Brew Science 12 03-25-2009 03:43 AM