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ryane 03-02-2012 11:33 PM

D2 syrup composition - What the hell is it?
 
So, I think I came up with a much better way of making homemade candy syrup (another topic altogether) And there has been some resistance to this method. Why I cant say, but it has made a lot of people question what is actually in D2.

If you look at the spec sheet there's pretty much nothing to it other than sugar. I think the spec sheet is bogus, so after some discussion I thought it could be useful to analyze some d2 and see what I get

Right now Im going to look at the following, (should be done by the end of next week)

Ash content
Fe
Ca
Mg
Total Nitrogen
Fructose:Glucose:sucrose ratio

Is there anything else anyone can think of that might be useful in closing the knowledge gap as far as what D2 really is? BTW If you cant tell I have access to a large range of research equipment, so just about any idea is possible

If your interested in reading my ideas about candy syrup look in my signature, but in this thread I dont really want to debate the method, rather I just want to hear ideas about learning more about D2

ajdelange 03-03-2012 12:08 AM

Never heard of the stuff but according to their spec sheet it is caramelized beet sugar. If, as you seem to suspect. there is more to it than caramelized beet sugar then I suppose you could run a sugar spectrum on it looking for things other than sucrose, glucose and fructose. These would need to be compared to the spectrum of beet sugar. Total nitrogen would be telling as total nitrogen in the product higher than total nitrogen in beet sugar would suggest that some amino acid, polypeptide or protein has been added to precipitate the formation of Maillard products.

ryane 03-03-2012 03:11 PM

Huh you must not brew many belgian beers to never have heard of D2

As far as whats in there, I think its basically beet molasses, although some are arguing that its made from refined sugar rather than a byproduct of the refining process

as far as the sugar spectrum that gets pretty tricky, you have to have a fairly specialized instrument set up just for sugars, and while I have access to an hplc ms, its really only set up to do the fructose:glucose:sucrose measurements, and even that is gonna take some work.

Is there any other type of measurement on the syrup itself that could be worthwhile in defining what d2 really is, so that we might get closer in making it at home?

DaleHair 03-03-2012 04:44 PM

I think it is invert sugar that has then been caramelized, it is most likely beet sugar. Google invert sugar

ajdelange 03-03-2012 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryane (Post 3853684)
Huh you must not brew many belgian beers to never have heard of D2

Never brewed one (well, I used to do wits)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryane (Post 3853684)
As far as whats in there, I think its basically beet molasses, although some are arguing that its made from refined sugar rather than a byproduct of the refining process

According to their spec sheet it's caramelized beet sugar. Molasses is the stuff rejected in the refining process. You know what that tastes like (or can easily find out). If D2 tastes different then you can tentatively put the molasses suspicion aside.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryane (Post 3853684)
as far as the sugar spectrum that gets pretty tricky, you have to have a fairly specialized instrument set up just for sugars, and while I have access to an hplc ms, its really only set up to do the fructose:glucose:sucrose measurements, and even that is gonna take some work.

I only suggested that as you said you had fancy gear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryane (Post 3853684)
Is there any other type of measurement on the syrup itself that could be worthwhile in defining what d2 really is, so that we might get closer in making it at home?

TKN based on the thought that there might be Maillard compounds in it.

ryane 03-03-2012 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajdelange (Post 3853965)
According to their spec sheet it's caramelized beet sugar. Molasses is the stuff rejected in the refining process. You know what that tastes like (or can easily find out). If D2 tastes different then you can tentatively put the molasses suspicion aside.

TKN based on the thought that there might be Maillard compounds in it.

I understand what the spec sheet says, but Im thinking this is the byproduct from the refining process. Beet molasses isnt something that readily available in the US. There is a german beet syrup that I think tastes similar to D or D2, but is missing some of the chocolate notes, and the german syrup as far as I know is a slightly diluted beet molasses

Caramelization doesnt generate the types of flavors I think we are seeing in D2, lots of what most people associate with caramelization is actually browning reactions that take amine groups from the milk thats added to make caramels. If you make the syrup like I outline in the post but omit the yeast nutrient you basically get a coloring syrup that will add NO flavor to the beer.

I think the source of the nitrogen in the d2 is actually proteins in the molasses that are removed during the refining process.

Repeated heating and cooling cycles are used to crystalize sucrose and remove it from the mix, each time the molasses is more and more concentrated. Additionally this most likely generates more and more maillard reactions increasing the depth of flavor. What Im trying to do here is try and get the best handle I can on what is actually in D2. I think if we better understand whats in it, we can better replicate it

TKN - I am doing this one, hopefully to get a good idea whats in there

dwarven_stout 03-03-2012 06:20 PM

Off topic, but related:

Did you try the "old" way of making syrup using DAP, or did you just try the Wyeast nutrient? I found a world of difference between the two. DAP gives me fruit, then vanilla and caramel, then nuts, depending on cooking time. Wyeast nutrient gave me burnt sugar and a hard to clean pan.

ryane 03-03-2012 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarven_stout (Post 3854192)
Off topic, but related:

Did you try the "old" way of making syrup using DAP, or did you just try the Wyeast nutrient? I found a world of difference between the two. DAP gives me fruit, then vanilla and caramel, then nuts, depending on cooking time. Wyeast nutrient gave me burnt sugar and a hard to clean pan.

Yes, that was the way I always did it in the past, the only reason I went with the yeast nutrient this time is that I was out of DAP

the problem with the "old way" is your fighting chemistry. While adding a bit of acid will increase the conversion of sucrose to glucose and fructose, the acid slows to a halt the maillard reactions and impedes caramelization, all the while speading up pyrolysis (burnt sugar flavors)

This isnt particularily directed at you, but I dont understand the resistance to at least try this out, in another thread on another site Ive been met with outright hostility about this.

If our goal is something like D2, shouldnt we be trying to at least mimic the process? beet sugar is refined in an alkaline environment, inversion of sucrose means lost product to sugar refiners.

dwarven_stout 03-03-2012 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryane (Post 3854265)
Yes, that was the way I always did it in the past, the only reason I went with the yeast nutrient this time is that I was out of DAP

the problem with the "old way" is your fighting chemistry. While adding a bit of acid will increase the conversion of sucrose to glucose and fructose, the acid slows to a halt the maillard reactions and impedes caramelization, all the while speading up pyrolysis (burnt sugar flavors)

Ah. I never added acid. Just beet sugar, heat and DAP.

Quote:

This isnt particularily directed at you, but I dont understand the resistance to at least try this out, in another thread on another site Ive been met with outright hostility about this.

If our goal is something like D2, shouldnt we be trying to at least mimic the process? beet sugar is refined in an alkaline environment, inversion of sucrose means lost product to sugar refiners.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I'll get some lime and try it out someday when I have time and a need for syrup.

I actually have a friend who is a process engineer in a sugar beet refinery near here. I might check with him and see if they have a comparable waste product and if so what they do with it.

ryane 03-03-2012 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarven_stout (Post 3854277)
I actually have a friend who is a process engineer in a sugar beet refinery near here. I might check with him and see if they have a comparable waste product and if so what they do with it.

I think most beet molasses goes to feed cattle etc, but I could be wrong, it would be interesting though if you could possibly get some of it from him, dilute it a tad and see how it tasted, better yet would be if you could send it my way and I could run the same tests on it to get a baseline to compare d2 to


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