New Giveaway - Wort Monster Conical Fermenter!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > Crs




Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-06-2013, 01:31 AM   #1
Kaiser
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Kaiser's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Pepperell, MA
Posts: 3,904
Liked 113 Times on 71 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default Crs

I'm looking to add CRS support to the Brewer's Friend water calculator. Based on some numbers online I found that CRS is a mix of 6.75% HCl and 9% H2SO4.

Does this sound correct?

CRS (carbonate reduction solution) is apparently used in the UK a lot and it makes sense to support it.

Thanks,
Kai



Kaiser is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-06-2013, 12:49 PM   #2
mabrungard
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Carmel, IN
Posts: 2,511
Liked 157 Times on 135 Posts
Likes Given: 24

Default

I did the back calculations about a year ago based on the manufacturer's website information. If I recall correctly, CRS ends up being a 50:50 mix of 0.5N acids. This is all from memory, so I'm not positive about that.

I've been visiting the UK homebrew sites for a few months now. I've come to the realization that CRS is quite detrimental to many brewers results. For every 100 ppm sulfate added to the water, 72 ppm chloride is added. While we can easily accept fairly high sulfate in our beers, it becomes quite minerally when paired with high chloride. A CRS user could easily create mineral water with that product.

AJ has been highlighting CRS use for years, but I can now say that we are fortunate its not available in the US. A brewer is far better off using sulfuric or hydrochloric, but not both.

CRS is already implimented in the Bru'n Water version provided to supporters. Including it in the BF calculator would be helpful to UK brewers. They have some questionable advice in the calculators they have over there, like advocating 300 ppm chloride. Mmm! Minerally.



__________________

Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water

mabrungard is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-06-2013, 02:11 PM   #3
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 5,208
Liked 452 Times on 371 Posts
Likes Given: 13

Default

They (Brupaks) say 0.87 mL will reduce the alkalinity of 1L of water by 160 ppm as CaCO3 (3.2 mEq/L). That implies that 1 mL supplies 3.2/0.87 = 3.68 mEq, that 1 L would supply 3.68 Eq so that the solution has an effective normality of 3.68. But I can't find anything that tells me what the mix might be or even that it is HCl and H2SO4. They just say it is an 'acid blend' so we know there are at least 2 components but, unless I am missing something, we have no idea what they might be. Given it's British brewing it is probably HCl and H2SO4. You both have cited numbers. Perhaps you got them from sources other than Brupaks own website?

Wish I could get my hands on some. It would be a simple enough matter to neutralize a sample and measure the chloride and sulfate (and maybe phosphate).

I do tend to mention CRS a lot because using mineral acid to fix mash pH seems to be a keystone in British brewing whereas using organic acid from natural sources is clearly the preference of the Germans. But I think it is very interesting to note that Kolbach's well known paper is really an appeal for the use of mineral acids in German brewing.

__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-06-2013, 08:57 PM   #4
Kaiser
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Kaiser's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Pepperell, MA
Posts: 3,904
Liked 113 Times on 71 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mabrungard View Post
I've been visiting the UK homebrew sites for a few months now. I've come to the realization that CRS is quite detrimental to many brewers results. For every 100 ppm sulfate added to the water, 72 ppm chloride is added. While we can easily accept fairly high sulfate in our beers, it becomes quite minerally when paired with high chloride. A CRS user could easily create mineral water with that product.
Yes, it’s easy to create rather mineral rich water with this product but that’s also the case with lactic acid. I think it’s part of brewer education to tell brewers that it will not remove minerals and if low mineral and low alkalinity water is desired other methods should be used.

[quote]
AJ has been highlighting CRS use for years, but I can now say that we are fortunate its not available in the US. A brewer is far better off using sulfuric or hydrochloric, but not both.
[quote]

I see it as a brewing water treatment option that has its place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post
They (Brupaks) say 0.87 mL will reduce the alkalinity of 1L of water by 160 ppm as CaCO3 (3.2 mEq/L). That implies that 1 mL supplies 3.2/0.87 = 3.68 mEq, that 1 L would supply 3.68 Eq so that the solution has an effective normality of 3.68. But I can't find anything that tells me what the mix might be or even that it is HCl and H2SO4. They just say it is an 'acid blend' so we know there are at least 2 components but, unless I am missing something, we have no idea what they might be. Given it's British brewing it is probably HCl and H2SO4. You both have cited numbers. Perhaps you got them from sources other than Brupaks own website?
I got the same numbers from Burpaks website. That also matches the results of the only calculator I was able to find that supports CRS: http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water/water.html

based on that I concluded that we are dealing with 6.75% HCl and 9% H2SO4. I was wondering if there are other sources.

Quote:
Wish I could get my hands on some. It would be a simple enough matter to neutralize a sample and measure the chloride and sulfate (and maybe phosphate).
That would be useful. One could also buy it on a trip to the UK and neutralize a sample before bringing it to the US.

Quote:
I do tend to mention CRS a lot because using mineral acid to fix mash pH seems to be a keystone in British brewing whereas using organic acid from natural sources is clearly the preference of the Germans. But I think it is very interesting to note that Kolbach's well known paper is really an appeal for the use of mineral acids in German brewing.
As I mentioned above, CRS has its place in brewing. Especially when brewing UK beers where it seems to be the traditional method for lowering alkalinity. I may be part of the character you are looking for in these beers. An educated brewer should be able to decide if the resulting mineral level is suits his/her needs or if other water treatment methods should be used.

Once the composition is known it’s easy to implement in a calculator.

Kai
Kaiser is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-07-2013, 01:42 AM   #5
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 5,208
Liked 452 Times on 371 Posts
Likes Given: 13

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
I got the same numbers from Burpaks website. That also matches the results of the only calculator I was able to find that supports CRS: http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water/water.html
That calculator says that 0.76 mL will produce, in a liter, 62.7 mg SO4-- and 49.6 mg/Cl. That's 1.398 mEq of each so that the stuff is 1.398/0.76 = 1.839 normal with respect to each or 3.679 N total which agrees with the value calculated from Brupak's usage table. The 'recipe' could then be:

To 950 mL of DI water add 0.051 mL 96% sulfuric acid and 0.148 mL 23 Be' hydrochloric acid. Make up to 1 L.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
based on that I concluded that we are dealing with 6.75% HCl and 9% H2SO4. I was wondering if there are other sources.
1.839 mEq of HCL weighs 67.07 mg which, in a liter of water corresponds to 6.71% and 1.839 mEq of H2SO4 weighs 90.198 mg which in a liter of water is 9.04% so yes, looks as if that is indeed what is in CRS assuming the guy that put the calculator together had the straight scoop from the manufacturer. I think it's probably much simpler to think of it as 1.398N HCl plus 1.398N H2SO4 (or probably just 1.4 N in each.).




Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
That would be useful. One could also buy it on a trip to the UK and neutralize a sample before bringing it to the US.
Take a 50 mL centrifuge tube and a phenolpthalein packet (from an alkalinity test kit) over there. Carefully measure out 1 mL CRS into the tube. Add a few mL of water and the phenolpthalein, then add baking soda until the solution starts to show color. Cap and take back to the states. Make up to a liter and send off to Ward labs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
Once the composition is known it’s easy to implement in a calculator.
You know the composite strength and
1. The website you reference indicates its equiequivalent amounts of each
2. It is reasonable to assume it would be.

I think you are pretty safe in assuming it is 1:1. Have you tried e-mailing the guy who owns the site and asking how he came up with those numbers?
__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-11-2013, 07:27 PM   #6
Kaiser
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Kaiser's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Pepperell, MA
Posts: 3,904
Liked 113 Times on 71 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

I found another manufaturer of a CRS like solution. The solution is called AMS and produced by Murphy's.

The have a datasheet here: http://www.murphyhomebrew.com/tech-sheets/tech_ams.pdf

Based on these numbers I come up with
HCl: ~6.3 % w/w (7% w/v)
H2SO4: ~8.6 % w/w (9.5% w/v)

looks like it is pretty close to Burpaks CRS.

Kai

__________________
BrauKaiser.com - brewing science blog - Twitter - water and mash chemistry calculator
Kaiser is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-30-2014, 01:03 PM   #7
mentaldental
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Salisbury, UK, United Kingdom
Posts: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser View Post
I found another manufaturer of a CRS like solution. The solution is called AMS and produced by Murphy's.

The have a datasheet here: http://www.murphyhomebrew.com/tech-sheets/tech_ams.pdf

Based on these numbers I come up with
HCl: ~6.3 % w/w (7% w/v)
H2SO4: ~8.6 % w/w (9.5% w/v)

looks like it is pretty close to Burpaks CRS.

Kai
AMS and CRS are the same product. Brupaks repackage AMS in "homebrew" quantities.

/Michael
__________________
mentaldental is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-30-2014, 01:41 PM   #8
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 5,208
Liked 452 Times on 371 Posts
Likes Given: 13

Default

Based on the AMS data sheet it is an equinormal (1.9 N each) mix of each of the two acids with total normality 3.83. This is within the ballpark of what I had estimated from the Brupaks website.

__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-31-2014, 10:14 PM   #9
mentaldental
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Salisbury, UK, United Kingdom
Posts: 2
Default

As you suggest CRS/AMS is in fairly widespread use in the UK, both at the homebrew and small scale commercial level.

I am situated in southern England on the edge of the chalk plain near Salisbury. My water is fairly typical of lots of supplies in the southern half of Great Britain:

Ca - 107.0 ppm
Mg - 2.0
Na - 8.7
Sulphate - 19
Cl - 18.0
Bicarb - 283
Hardness - 276
Alkalinity - 234
RA - 157

I note your comments about CRS leading to a rather minerally water and I decided to plug some numbers into Bru'n Water. I used this recipe:

Pale ale malt 5 EBC 97%
Crystal 100 EBC 3%
EBC 16
OG 1043

So a pretty boring brown beer like you might see down the pub.

I adjusted the sparge water to pH 5.7 and mash to pH 5.4 using CRS.

The resulting finished water profile was:
Ca - 107.0 ppm
Mg - 2.0
Na - 8.7
Sulphate - 109.6
Cl - 83.4
Bicarb - 30.5
Hardness - 276
Alkalinity - 25
Alkalinity - 234
RA - -52
Sulphate/Cl ratio - 1.3

None of those figures seem off the scale and the sulphate/chloride ration seems on the money for a Boring Brown Beer.

Maybe CRS is popular in the UK because it does work reasonably well for a lot of our beers and a lot of our waters.

/Michael



__________________
mentaldental is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools
Display Modes