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Old 10-13-2010, 07:13 PM   #11
Bowtiebrewery
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^^^ See I don't understand this... I must have read over and over Palmer's water section of How to brew and it does seem that RA is pretty important...

I am just getting really confused... After reading what AJ posted as the top Sticky he says to basically only add 2 teaspoons of Calcium Chloride per 5 gallons... and since this is a british beer also add the 1 teaspoon of Gypsum per 5 gallons...

So thats 4 teaspoons of Calcium Chloride and 2 Teaspoons of Gypsum...

That is considering I have soft water...

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Old 10-13-2010, 07:23 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Bowtiebrewery View Post
^^^ See I don't understand this... I must have read over and over Palmer's water section of How to brew and it does seem that RA is pretty important...

I am just getting really confused... After reading what AJ posted as the top Sticky he says to basically only add 2 teaspoons of Calcium Chloride per 5 gallons... and since this is a british beer also add the 1 teaspoon of Gypsum per 5 gallons...

So thats 4 teaspoons of Calcium Chloride and 2 Teaspoons of Gypsum...

That is considering I have soft water...
There is a divide amongst brewers when it comes to the RA to SRM connection. Not everybody accepts what Palmer has written.

I'd suggest that you brew the beer both ways and compare the results. If you do please post your findings.
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Old 10-13-2010, 07:31 PM   #13
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I don't get it if there is a divide... AJ who has posted here, isn't he the same person that is cited on Palmer's website under Residual Alkalinity?

How about this... I'll brew the beer base on the exact additions that are suggested here... So far people have told me to revisit my calculations but have yet to get a suggested chemistry for my brew day... So here it is in its entirety so that way i leave nothing out...

Denny Conn's BVIP
SRM 40.7
19.75lbs of grain total rounded to 20lbs

of this 1.5 is a crystal malt
1.25 is a roasted malt

My water Profile:
Ca: 13.5
Mg: 2.7
Na: 15
SO4: 26.4
Cl: 26.6
HCO3: 16
Ph is 7.1

I'm assuming that I should be aiming for a London Profile however I'll leave that to your better knowledge in this area.

So in order to appropriately brew this beer what additions should I make.

Thanks,

Jason

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Old 10-13-2010, 08:47 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Bowtiebrewery View Post
I don't get it if there is a divide... AJ who has posted here, isn't he the same person that is cited on Palmer's website under Residual Alkalinity?
Yes, I'm the same guy but I had nothing to do with the RA/SRM thing. Everthing I gave John when he was writing the book is available to you at www.wetnewf.org. You won't see any mention of SRM in the water chemistry stuff there (though there is lots on it in the beer color stuff). I never really took the time to understand what he was about with the color part of his nomogram. It wasn't until I started seeing threads like this one that I finally downloaded the spreadsheet and got a real surprise when I saw the numbers that come out for dark beer. I know that this is a complex subject but if you have any understanding of brewing chemistry or have someone who does that you can talk to he will tell you the same thing I have said. No beer was ever brewed with and RA over 500 (probably should never say never - I'm sure some people using John's spreadsheet have.)

The EZ spreadsheet has more or less fixed the chalk problem (and he warns you that the fix isn't good at higher pH) and toned the relationship between color and SRM way down but it is still there. He also handles acid additions better but still one should take anything that comes out of spreadsheet with a grain of salt.

[
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Originally Posted by Bowtiebrewery View Post

of this 1.5 is a crystal malt
1.25 is a roasted malt

My water Profile:
Ca: 13.5
Mg: 2.7
Na: 15
SO4: 26.4
Cl: 26.6
HCO3: 16
Ph is 7.1

I'm assuming that I should be aiming for a London Profile however I'll leave that to your better knowledge in this area.

So in order to appropriately brew this beer what additions should I make.
Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%

For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz.

For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.
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Old 10-13-2010, 09:18 PM   #15
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I plugged everything into EZ Water with estimated mash/sparge volumes and I may have to take back what I said about chalk. It looks like you might need some here. I use it on occasion, but I try to avoid it. You could probably leave the chalk out of the sparge and still be OK since the spreadsheet reduces the effectiveness to 50% and you might get better than that. Anyway, here's roughly what I would do:


Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 13.5
Mg: 2.7
Na: 15
Cl: 26.6
SO4: 26.4
HCO3: 16

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6.5 / 9.5
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 19.75
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 1.5
Roasted Grain: 1.25
Beer Color (SRM): 30

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 2.5 / 3.653846154
NaHCO3: 5 / 0
NaCl: 1 / 0
CaCO3: 5 / 7.307692308
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 95 / 95
Mg: 12 / 12
Na: 87 / 44
Cl: 51 / 37
SO4: 66 / 66
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.78 / 0.55

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 234
RA: 159
Estimated pH: 5.22

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Old 10-14-2010, 01:24 AM   #16
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I plugged everything into EZ Water with estimated mash/sparge volumes and I may have to take back what I said about chalk. It looks like you might need some here. I use it on occasion, but I try to avoid it. You could probably leave the chalk out of the sparge and still be OK since the spreadsheet reduces the effectiveness to 50% and you might get better than that.
Without any mineral additions the mash pH of this beer will probably be around 5.45- 5.55 (but I can't predict that anymore than a spreadsheet can.

Bicarbonate and carbonate should never be added to brewing water (except under special circumstances). The way to use them is to check the mash pH with a pH meter and if it is low, then add some to the mash. That is not likely here. Unfortunately, the strips don't seem to work very well. You really do need a meter (and the know how to use it).

The EZ spreadsheet has been corrected to correctly calculate the effects of alkalinity increase when chalk is added as long as the pH is below 8.3 or so.

You would never want to add chalk to sparge water. All it can do is react with acid in the mash to cause the runoff pH to rise faster to the point where phenol extraction becomes a concern.
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Old 10-14-2010, 03:06 AM   #17
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Hmmm, I think I got a pH of about 5.05 without the additions. I'll have to double-check my spreadsheet. That's why I thought a bit of chalk might be a good idea.

AJ, why would you never add carbonate and bicarbonate at the same time? I'm not disagreeing with you, I've just never heard that one.

I don't add chalk to the sparge water either. If I were to add it I would add to the boil kettle and not the sparge. Actually, I add all of my "sparge" additions to the kettle if I do them. Most of the time I don't bother. I have pretty good water here in Chicago.

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Old 10-14-2010, 12:48 PM   #18
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The pH observation is based on experience. Approximately 10% roast barley gives me pH of 5.5 or so. 30% takes me to 5.2 (Maris Otter base malt). Remember that the spreadsheet is based on a model and that models fit differing sets of circumstances differently. That is why it is so important to measure pH with a reliable instrument. That's the only way that you will really know what's happening.

I should have said neither bicarbonate nor carbonate should be added to brewing water except...

Just remember that if there is a rule of thumb that really works most of the time in brewing it would be "Alkalinity = bad". Both bicarbonate and carbonate are sources of alkalinity.

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Old 10-14-2010, 01:16 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by chicagobrew View Post
I plugged everything into EZ Water with estimated mash/sparge volumes and I may have to take back what I said about chalk. It looks like you might need some here. I use it on occasion, but I try to avoid it. You could probably leave the chalk out of the sparge and still be OK since the spreadsheet reduces the effectiveness to 50% and you might get better than that. Anyway, here's roughly what I would do:


Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 13.5
Mg: 2.7
Na: 15
Cl: 26.6
SO4: 26.4
HCO3: 16

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6.5 / 9.5
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 19.75
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 1.5
Roasted Grain: 1.25
Beer Color (SRM): 30

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 2.5 / 3.653846154
NaHCO3: 5 / 0
NaCl: 1 / 0
CaCO3: 5 / 7.307692308
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 95 / 95
Mg: 12 / 12
Na: 87 / 44
Cl: 51 / 37
SO4: 66 / 66
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.78 / 0.55

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 234
RA: 159
Estimated pH: 5.22
Your using too much water. The OP stated that the recipe calls for 10.25 gallons of brewing water. You've also got the SRM wrong, it should be 40.7
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Old 10-14-2010, 01:31 PM   #20
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DISCLAIMER: I'm just an average brewer who knows how to punch numbers into a spreadsheet. I don't know mush about chemistry. In spreadsheet we trust!

Here is what I get using the EZ spreadsheet

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 13.5
Mg: 2.7
Na: 15
Cl: 26.6
SO4: 26.4
HCO3: 16

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 7.5 / 2.75
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 20
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 1.25
Roasted Grain: 1.5
Beer Color (SRM): 40.7

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 1 / 0.36
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 8 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 4 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 80 / 64
Mg: 3 / 3
Na: 92 / 71
Cl: 44 / 44
SO4: 26 / 26
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.65 / 1.65

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 250
RA: 191
Estimated pH: 5.21

I've got you mashing with 7.5 gallons (1.5 qts/lb) and using the other 2.75 gallons in the sparge. You add the mash salts directly to the mash. Add the sparge salts to the wort in the boil kettle.

Really your water is good to brew this beer as is EXCEPT that there is an assumption that the dark malts will lower your pH out of range. So we are using chalk & baking soda to correct the pH. You may want to mash in WITHOUT the salts and check the pH. If it's in range (5.2 - 5.7) you could skip the baking soda and chalk and just add 5 grams of Calcium Chloride to the mash. Or you could just add the stuff in the spreadsheet and go with the flow. Please post your results.

It would be great if you brewed it my way and AJ's way and then compared the results. It may help close the divide.

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