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Old 02-25-2010, 10:06 PM   #1
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Default Can Somebody Help me Make this Water

I'm trying to figure out the relationship and interaction of the various brewing salts. I am using TH's Spreadsheet. Brewing Yoopers Fat Sam Amber Ale. And shooting for a profile Bobby advised for an American Pale Ale,

Randy Mosher's Pale Ale, Ca-110, Mg-18, Na-17, Cl-50, SO-350, RA-32

Here is my water copy from TH Spreadsheet;


Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 102
Mg: 34
Na: 35
Cl: 1
SO4: 24
CaCO3: 355

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 3.75 / 0
Dilution Rate: 0%

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaCO3: 0 / 0
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
HCL Acid: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid: 0 / 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 102 / 102
Mg: 34 / 34
Na: 35 / 35
Cl: 1 / 1
SO4: 24 / 24
CaCO3: 355 / 355

RA (mash only): 262 (27 to 32 SRM)
Cl to SO4 (total water): 0.04 (Very Bitter)



Am I correct that the first thing I need to look at is the Mg? And reduce my levels by adding 50% Distilled Water.

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Old 02-26-2010, 04:59 AM   #2
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For your water, to make this and come pretty darn close to those specs you could dilute with 81% Distilled or RO water and add 6g Gypsum, 2g Epsom Salts, 1g non-iodized salt (NaCl).

For 3.75 gallons you would add about 3 gallons of distilled and 3/4 gallon of your water.

This gets you to:

Ca: 115
Mg: 20
Na: 34
Cl: 43
SO4: 295
CaCO3: 62
RA: -26 and Cl to SO4 ratio .14 extremely close to Moshers ratio, very important if you want to match up.

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Old 02-26-2010, 09:24 AM   #3
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Thanks Netflyer. Now I have to look at how you got there. I hadn't thought of going that much distilled.

So with that much distilled water in the Mash Water should I also be concerned about the sparge water? Should sparge water be diluted the same as the mash? I've read that it don't matter, but it just seems to me if I need that much dilution in mash it would certainly make a difference in the sparge thereby final product. What about salts in the sparge?


My beer has been ok, but just not "right" I'm thinking it may be my water.

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Old 02-26-2010, 10:49 AM   #4
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I would do the following :

Mix 1.25 gallons of your water with 2.5 gallons of distilled water .

Now , you have 3.75 gallon mash water which contains :

Ca = 34 ppm
Mg = 11.3 ppm
Na = 11.6 ppm
Cl = 0.33 ppm
SO4 = 8 ppm

Add the following Salts :

1 gramm of Magnesium Sulfate

0.2 gramm of Sodium Chloride

1.2 gramm of Calcium Chloride

3.2 gramm of Calcium Sulfate

Then , you have

Ca = 110.4 ppm

Mg = 18.2 ppm

Na = 17.2 ppm

Cl = 50.3 ppm

SO4 = 163 ppm

RA = 29

pH = 5.85 ( at room Temp. )

pH = 5.5 ( at mash Temp. )

Chloride to Sulfate ratio = 0.3 ( very bitter )

Hector

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Old 02-26-2010, 01:08 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonRock View Post
Thanks Netflyer. Now I have to look at how you got there. I hadn't thought of going that much distilled.

So with that much distilled water in the Mash Water should I also be concerned about the sparge water? Should sparge water be diluted the same as the mash? I've read that it don't matter, but it just seems to me if I need that much dilution in mash it would certainly make a difference in the sparge thereby final product. What about salts in the sparge?


My beer has been ok, but just not "right" I'm thinking it may be my water.
Funny you should ask... I believe we both use TH's spread sheet and I asked in another post (unanswered to date prob. cause only TH can answer and I should pm him) if when you make a dilution on the spread sheet does it consider the sparge water as part of the dilution?

So if we put 3.75g mash in with an 80% dilution representing only the mash portion of your total water I understand the sheet dilutes the mash. If we then put in the sparge water gallons, does that 80% also dilute that water by 80% distilled? If it does, then it seems to me there is no easy way the sheet can show us what 80 diluted mash with rec. salts + sparge with Your Water would yield in terms of final ppm. If the dilution does NOT include the sparge water then you can just put in the sparge amount and see the final results of each ion.

The reason so much Gypsum went in to this recipe was because you asked about meeting the Mosher recipe. The Morse recipe's Cl to SO4 ration was extremely low, like .14ish. On top of that the RA is low also. This was the sticking point with your water with your TA at 355. That is very high and makes it very difficult if not impossible to use your water to brew any light colored beer. The CaCO3 grabs H+ ions in the mash that if not grabbed could help lower the mash pH. Mg and Ca can help to strip the H+ out of the CaCO3 but only to a certain extent. When you start with or dilute with a good amount of distilled or reverse osmosis water you are diluting the CaCO3 (buffer) out and then the Mg and Ca can really bring the pH down and this allows for lighter color like you want.

Take a look at this graphic from Palmer's How to Brew chapter on brewing water. It's his nanogram that shows how adjusting the calcium ions up can lower the RA and the SRM. If you put your 355 in there in the middle you can see how hard it might be do drive that line that intersects through anything resembling a light colored beer.



So it seems the only solution to help you make anything but a very dark brew is to dilute. Also you could mess with the Cl to SO4 ratio, if you didn't want the pale ale to have that high of a ratio you could have used less gypsum and instead some CaCl2, probably less Epsom too both gypsum and epsom were used because you needed such a high SO4 level to meet that recipe. You could probably brew a very nice pale ale with a 1:2 ratio, what palmer considers bitter or 1:3 even. The Mosher ratio is much much lower.

So as far as salts in the sparge, since we really aren't sure yet about if the spreadsheet is giving us a diluted sparge or considering a sparge of the original water I'm not sure how to answer that ... TH's sheet will certainly tell you, if you leave those middle boxes checked, how much salt to add to the sparge water to keep the Entire water at the mash ion ratio... The question we both have at that point would be, 'Is this a desired condition'? I, just because Bobby_M showed me, like to use my water for the sparge and only add salts to the mash. But I have Very different water than you with a CaCo3 (Total Alkalinity) of 130 which is usable and manageable. So in your case you have 3 choices

1. Use distilled water for the sparge(s)

2. Treat the sparge water according to the ssheet

3. Use your water entirely for the sparge. (probably wouldn't hurt but someone else would have to help me confirm that since we're not exactly sure of the final ion concentrations)
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:08 PM   #6
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Great help netflyer! I'll have to read that a couple more times and hope it sticks.

I tried to make sense of Palmers nanogram but with my numbers it just didn't seem like I could do anything with it. I'll revisit it now with your helpful guidance. I know I have water issues and have considered (planned) on a RO system to brew with. So if I decide that RO is the best, most predictable way to start with water that's what I'll do. But even 20% of my water if it has helpful ions is better than nothing.

The sparge water in my case does seem puzzling. I've also read that salts are not helpful in sparge, But it sure seems like there has to be a limit on the water going into the sparge.

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Old 02-26-2010, 02:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonRock View Post
Great help netflyer! I'll have to read that a couple more times and hope it sticks.

I tried to make sense of Palmers nanogram but with my numbers it just didn't seem like I could do anything with it. I'll revisit it now with your helpful guidance. I know I have water issues and have considered (planned) on a RO system to brew with. So if I decide that RO is the best, most predictable way to start with water that's what I'll do. But even 20% of my water if it has helpful ions is better than nothing.

The sparge water in my case does seem puzzling. I've also read that salts are not helpful in sparge, But it sure seems like there has to be a limit on the water going into the sparge.
What do you think about my Suggestion ?!

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Old 02-26-2010, 03:06 PM   #8
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Thank You hector for the suggestion. I am obviously in a learning stage here and would like to know more about the way you came up with the formula. I am sure it would be good for my brew. I just want to know how you got there.

I dream of the day I can actually come to HBT and help rather than ask. It will probably not be in the Brew Science forum. But someday somewhere.

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Old 02-26-2010, 04:22 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonRock View Post
Thank You hector for the suggestion. I am obviously in a learning stage here and would like to know more about the way you came up with the formula. I am sure it would be good for my brew. I just want to know how you got there.

I dream of the day I can actually come to HBT and help rather than ask. It will probably not be in the Brew Science forum. But someday somewhere.
My Calculations are much closer to Mosher's Profile , aren't they ?

Such Calculations are easy for me as I studied Chemistry at University .

A simple Way for you would be to use the Table 16 in Section 15-4 at John Palmer's "How To Brew" .

I diluted the ion Concentrations of your water to one-third and then

calculated the amount of Salts needed to obtain the nearest Profile to Mosher's .

For example ,

Mg = 34 ppm ( your water )

After dilution ,

Mg = 11.3 ppm

You would like to have 18 ppm of Magnesium ion , so we need to add 6.7 ppm of this ion to the water .

In Table 16 you see that 1 gramm of Magnesium Sulfate dissolved in one gallon distilled water ,

adds 26 ppm of Magnesium ion to the Solution .

6.7 / 26 = 0.26 gramms of the Salt needed per gallon

As you have 3.75 gallon mash water ,

0.26 X 3.75 = 0.975 gramms of the Salt needed to add , which is almost 1 gramm .

But you should notice that you added Sulfate ions as well and it should be taken into account .

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Old 02-26-2010, 04:47 PM   #10
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That is what I need. Hector thank you. Now I can take a look at what you came up with and how you got there. Cool.

Sorry for me it really has to be dumb'd down.

So easy even a caveman can do it.

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