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Old 02-07-2013, 02:28 PM   #1
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Default Bru'n Water Munich Profile Help

I'm trying to brew a Munich Dunkel and match the water profile. I have in the link to the spreadsheet my city's water report and where I have gotten with the calculations. This is using my recipe I'm trying to use as well as the water volumes.

The more I increase chalk, the higher the pH goes, and I'm struggling to get that Munich profile, but also have pH in the right arena. Can someone offer some suggestions here?

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6Bh...it?usp=sharing

Google shows it in their format, it looks like it allows people to download it though.

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Old 02-07-2013, 04:25 PM   #2
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From what I know about Bru'n Water, it does not handle chalk correctly. You may want to try this: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-ch...er-calculator/

There the chalk is assumed to be only 50% effective.

If you post your profile and grist I could help.

Kai

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Old 02-07-2013, 04:35 PM   #3
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Thanks Kaiser.

I actually just started using brewersfriend.com and tried the calc, just not use to it and just need more time with it. Here is my info:

Ca: 20.5
Mg: 13.1
Na: 13.2
Bicarbonate: 85.9
So4: 21.1
Chloride: 33.4
pH: 8.2

5# Dark Munich L=10
5# Light Munich L=6
.13# Chocolate L=350
.5# Caramunich L=39
.13# Carafa 1 L=340

1.5 qts/lb water.
4.03 strike water
9.67 into the boil for ending ~6 gallon into fermenter.

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Old 02-07-2013, 04:43 PM   #4
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I subscribe to the theory that if the salts,etc are just for taste add them to the boil and not the mash or sparge water. Get a mash profile with the correct amount of Ca(for mashing not for flavor), and maybe Mg. Then make sure your pH is correct (with acid additions). Mash and sparge, and then add your chalk or whatever else to the boil to get the flavor profile you desire. I think this should simplify the regulation of mash pH, which is the most important part. Anyone think this is a good idea?

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Old 02-07-2013, 04:47 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by slarkin712 View Post
I think this should simplify the regulation of mash pH, which is the most important part. Anyone think this is a good idea?
That might be true for Gypsum and calcium chloride but chalk is generally added to correct the mash pH and should be added to the mash.

Further more, a proper mash pH generally leads to an appropriate wort pH in the kettle. As a result you don't want to add stuff to the kettle that changes its pH unless that's your intend. If you want to add salts at only one step, add them to the mash.

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Old 02-07-2013, 05:03 PM   #6
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I'm new to brewing water chemistry, so I want to make it as simple as possible to control mashing and sparing. In general, isn't mash and sparge pH more important than boil pH? Once the wort is in the kettle, starch conversion and tannin extraction issues are not a concern, which I think is the main reason to control mash and sparge pH. What are the effects of boil pH? Wort clarity, color, hop extraction? My aim at boil additions is to adjust flavor profile with salts, never used chalk. What would be the taste effect of adding carbonate? Forgive my ignorance.

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Old 02-07-2013, 05:21 PM   #7
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I'm not familiar with boil pH and will let someone else comment on it.

Kaiser -

Being green to water additions still, I struggle a little bit with the format of the water calc. It seems to me I should put my water in, than the grist, and what my target is, before being asked to put in salt additions (which you can do, just not presented in that order).

The other question is regarding additions to both mash and sparge? Bru'n water says not to add for example Chalk to your sparge and substitute Gypsum in the sparge. How do you see working this for this calculator?

BTW - really like what brewersfriend is doing with calculators like this, especially the yeast calculator and the fantastic explanations below it.

The hardest part I am finding is finding that balancing act between trying to match the water profile.

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Old 02-07-2013, 05:48 PM   #8
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I also created a link for my water report:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-ch...or/?id=JX9XXXL

I took off the Ca additions to see how you would do it. Let me know what concerns you see with what I am showing here.

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Old 02-07-2013, 06:16 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by -MG- View Post
Being green to water additions still, I struggle a little bit with the format of the water calc. It seems to me I should put my water in, than the grist, and what my target is, before being asked to put in salt additions (which you can do, just not presented in that order).
That is a comment we are hearing a lot and I think we’ll change the order in which the fields are presented. The current order is heavily influenced by my approach to water treatment. I don’t care all that much about target water comparison since I can easily eyeball the results. However, this is not how most brewers are approaching it and that’s why it makes sense to change it.


Quote:
The other question is regarding additions to both mash and sparge? Bru'n water says not to add for example Chalk to your sparge and substitute Gypsum in the sparge. How do you see working this for this calculator?
It makes sense to omit the pH raising salts from the sparge water but I didn’t want to keep the user from doing that if that’s what’s intended. Currently mash and sparge salts are not split by default. A few brewers have asked for the option of splitting the overall salt additions into mash and sparge. We have to think about how to best present this option.

Quote:
BTW - really like what brewersfriend is doing with calculators like this, especially the yeast calculator and the fantastic explanations below it.
Thanks

Quote:
The hardest part I am finding is finding that balancing act between trying to match the water profile.
This is the problem with working towards a given water profile. What I think is more important is to capture the essence of that water profile and base your water treatment on that. The essence of Munich water, for example, is that it is high in temporary hardness (lots of calcium and bicarbonate) and relatively low in sodium, sulfate and chloride. You won’t be able to taste a difference between the targeted 70 ppm Ca and an actual 90 ppm but you may taste a difference if you end up with an actual of 150 ppm Ca, for example.


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Originally Posted by -MG- View Post
I also created a link for my water report:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-ch...or/?id=JX9XXXL
Thanks. Looks like this new feature is starting to become useful.

Kai
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:42 PM   #10
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You don’t need to add any acid to the mash for this beer since the main concern with this grist would be lower than desired mash pH.

Regarding your water treatment, I think 3 g of chalk in the mash water should do the trick. You could also start out with 1.5g, test pH and check if you need more. An alternative would be ~1 g pickling lime. I’d also add 2 g of calcium Chloride to boost the calcium content.

The 5 g chalk sounds a bit high I have brewed my Doppelbock with this water treatment http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php...mperator#Water and the beer has a similar grist to yours with respect to its pH characteristics. The water treatment for that beer included 2g Baking Soda and 3.8g chalk to all water. But that started with R/O water.

Kai

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