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Old 02-11-2011, 02:28 AM   #71
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Water can ruin your day in 2 ways:
1. It can cause mash pH to be too high. This usually results in dull flavors - an insipid beer.
2. There can be something in the water which causes an off flavor to appear
a)Chloramine - bandaid, plastic,smokey taste
b)Geosmines etc. - musty taste
c)Excess of chloride paired with sodium/potassium - salty taste
d)High content of some metallic ion such as copper, iron or zinc - metallic taste
e)High sulfate content - harsh hops bitterness.
f)Something else I don't know about or have forgotten about.

As he hit mash pH the problem isn't 1) and must be one of the items in 2.
AJ, I meant to ask you before- at what point does lactic acid or sauermalz become discernible? 3% for the malt? What about for the lactic acid?

I know my sparge water is too alkaline, that's why I ask. Not so much for mash pH, but for sparging. Can a wee bit of lactic acid be added for the sparge to keep the pH under control during the sparge?
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Old 02-11-2011, 02:41 AM   #72
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Sauermalz is discernible at 3% but not for sourness but rather a subtle complexity. IMO that is one of the advantages to using it, at least in lagers. It really adds something to the taste. I'm certain one could go higher before sourness was detectable but I'm not sure how much higher. I expect it depends on the beer and the taster. As Weyermann recommends 8% (IIRC) for a pseudo Berliner Weiße I think we're safe in assuming that's too much (unless trying to do a Weiße). I certainly think you are OK adding a bit of lactic acid to the sparge water for pH control.

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Old 02-19-2011, 06:19 PM   #73
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Pardon me for being a moron, but...

Is calcium chloride dihydrate the same as calcium chloride?

CaCl the same as CaCl2?

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Old 02-19-2011, 09:56 PM   #74
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If really delving down into the nitty-gritty of water chemistry one has to consider the formation of ion pairs such as CaCl+ which come about because a solution of calcium chloride has mobile doubly charged calcium ions and mobile singly charges chloride ions loose and moving about. The positive charge on a calcium ion will attract a negatively charged chloride ion forming the pair but just as the bonds between Ca++ and the pair of chloride ions are easily disrupted during solvation with water so would a single bond with a single chloride ion and the pair wouldn't be long lived.

If you filled a container with calcium vapor and admitted 1 chlorine atom I suppose 1 molecule of CaCl would be formed as a chlorine radical will be pretty grabby for an electron from the first calcium it encounters.

CaClF exists though.

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Old 02-19-2011, 10:55 PM   #75
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Guess I should have stated the reason for asking...

The prescribed formula lists "calcium chloride dihydrate (what your beer store sells)" Online beer stores offer calcium chloride. Just want to make sure we are talking about the same thing.

Googling "calcium chloride dihydrate" gave results listing CaCl2. Online vendors don't offer any designation.

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Old 02-20-2011, 04:34 AM   #76
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The prescribed formula lists "calcium chloride dihydrate (what your beer store sells)" Online beer stores offer calcium chloride. Just want to make sure we are talking about the same thing.
Turns out I'm glad you asked that question. I've always used the dihydrate obtained from a chemical supplier because it is more stable i.e. it doesn't pick up water from the air which makes it easier to weigh accurately, it won't turn soupy on you if you leave it out etc. Now I happen to have some of LD Carlson's from the LHBS which is labeled Calcium Chloride without saying anything about the waters of hydration so as common sense would dictate that it's also the dihydrate for the reasons given above I always assumed that it had to be. But your question got me wondering. Had I ever checked it? Couldn't remember. I hit on the idea of putting the same amount of the stuff I know to be the dihydrate and the LD Carlson stuff into equal volumes of water and measuring the conductivity (no need to fiddle with all the stuff for a calcium hardness or chloride ion test). To my great surprise the LD Carlson measured 35% greater conductivity. A given weight of anhydrous calcium chloride (CaCl2) has 32% more calcium and chloride ions in it than the dihydrate (CaCl2.2H2O). So the LD Carlson offering appears to be the anhydrous. To confirm this I put about half a gram on the balance and left it exposed to room air for about 45 min. It gained 3% in weight in this time (room humidity 23% - it doubtless picked up most of the moisture when I was near the balance exhaling water vapor).

So if you get it from LD Carlson it is anhydrous. The LD Carlson stuff is in the prill (little sphere) form. That may protect it from water pick up so that it doesn't turn to soup as soon as you open the jar. If you get it from a different packager then it's anyone's guess. If it is in the prill form it is probably from the same source as LD Carlson's and probably anhydrous.

The recommendation "1 tsp per 5 gallons" is pretty approximate. It assumes the dihydrate and that the dihydrate weighs about 5 grams per tsp. This would yield about 72 mg/L calcium ion concentration and and 127 mg/L chloride. Using the same amount of anhydrous salt would increase calcium and chloride by about 32% to 95 and 169.
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Old 02-20-2011, 05:07 AM   #77
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So they are not the same, but they work the same at equal quantities?

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Old 02-20-2011, 05:46 AM   #78
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Quote:
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I've always used the dihydrate obtained from a chemical supplier because it is more stable i.e. it doesn't pick up water from the air which makes it easier to weigh accurately, it won't turn soupy on you if you leave it out etc.
So would a good way to find out what you have be to leave a small amount sitting around in the open for some time (hours/days?) and see if it turns soupy?
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Old 02-20-2011, 04:42 PM   #79
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At the risk of excessive horse beating, I'm trying to reconcile the original "baseline" rule of thumb with "conventional brewing wisdom" (using EZ 2.0)...

My water is sub 20ppm for everything but CaCO3 which is 90ppm. Diluting 2:1 with RO and adding back 5 grams of calcium chloride basically gives me 90ppm Ca, 140ppm Cl and almost nothing else. So no Mg, Na, or SO4 are really needed? This also results in a chloride to sulfate ratio of over 34 for me. We're really chucking that whole chloride / sulfate concept in the toilet, aren't we? Maybe that's a good thing...

I do get a good predicted pH of 5.31 with 2% sauermalz on a simple 2-row pale ale, but even with no RO dilution, my predicted pH is still 5.35. Why the 35ppm cap on CaCO3 when (at least in my circumstance) there doesn't appear to be much difference between 30ppm and the un-diluted 90?

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Old 02-20-2011, 04:53 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post
The recommendation "1 tsp per 5 gallons" is pretty approximate. It assumes the dihydrate and that the dihydrate weighs about 5 grams per tsp. This would yield about 72 mg/L calcium ion concentration and and 127 mg/L chloride. Using the same amount of anhydrous salt would increase calcium and chloride by about 32% to 95 and 127.
I assume this was a typo and you meant 95 and 169. If this is the case, using the anhydrous LD Carlson, the "baseline" would be 3.8 grams in 5 gal, correct?
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