New Giveaway - Wort Monster Conical Fermeneter!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer




Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-15-2013, 06:23 PM   #591
ajdelange
Senior Member
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 5,203
Liked 452 Times on 371 Posts
Likes Given: 13

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicSmoker View Post
I have one big question though... I've heard that reverse osmosis typically reduces the concentrations of dissolved solids by 90% (ie - water that goes into the RO system with 100ppm of Ca comes out with around 10ppm).
It should be more like 2 - 5 ppm i.e. you should be getting rejections of over 95% and 98% or even a little more for some ions in a properly functioning system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicSmoker View Post
If that is true then I probably will still have problems even using straight RO water judging by my Ward Labs report:
Probably not. This water is very high in sulfate and highish in sodium but is otherwise pretty normal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicSmoker View Post
Needless to say, water heaters don't last long in these here parts...
?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicSmoker View Post
So, given the mineral content of my water to begin with, would I be better off just using straight RO, or should I still toss in a few grams of calcium chloride?
If you do use RO then you will definitely want to add calcium chloride and acid (for most beers) and sulfate for those in which you want the hop character associated with sulfate.


__________________
ajdelange is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-15-2013, 06:33 PM   #592
MagicSmoker
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 119
Liked 14 Times on 11 Posts
Likes Given: 61

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post
It should be more like 2 - 5 ppm i.e. you should be getting rejections of over 95% and 98% or even a little more for some ions in a properly functioning system.
Okay. I'll definitely take your word for it over the nebulous "they". Would using a TDS meter be a good way to evaluate how effective the RO system is?

Also, any word yet on when your book is coming out? I think back in June of last year you said it might be another year... is that still on track?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post
?
Scale will build up in water heaters to such an extent that the lower element will burn out if the tank isn't drained every year or so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post
If you do use RO then you will definitely want to add calcium chloride and acid (for most beers) and sulfate for those in which you want the hop character associated with sulfate.
Check. I'll definitely be using RO for this next batch, and I have all the other supplies necessary to do the adjustments (including a pH meter and calibration solutions). I probably should brew the same recipe I've already done before to make this a more scientific test, but where's the fun in that?

Thanks for the reply - the effort you have expended in this thread alone should surely qualify as legendary.


__________________
MagicSmoker is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-15-2013, 07:12 PM   #593
ajdelange
Senior Member
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 5,203
Liked 452 Times on 371 Posts
Likes Given: 13

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicSmoker View Post
Would using a TDS meter be a good way to evaluate how effective the RO system is?
Yes, definitely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicSmoker View Post
Also, any word yet on when your book is coming out? I think back in June of last year you said it might be another year... is that still on track?
It's not my book - I'm just doing tech editing on it. The authors are finding out what I knew already - this isn't an easy subject to write a book on. I have no idea what the publisher will actually want to do but I'd say that it still needs quite a bit of work. My guess is that, as was the case last year, the hope would be to get it out for the NHA conference. I don't see making that schedule without cutting some corners but it is possible.




Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicSmoker View Post
Scale will build up in water heaters to such an extent that the lower element will burn out if the tank isn't drained every year or so.
Figured that might be it but the water isn't that bad as almost half is permanent hardensss (does not deposit).
__________________
ajdelange is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-15-2013, 07:20 PM   #594
thatjonguy
Now with 57.93% more awesome!
Feedback Score: 8 reviews
 
thatjonguy's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North Central, North Dakota
Posts: 1,782
Liked 195 Times on 134 Posts
Likes Given: 17

Default

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

pH 9.3
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 720
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 1.20
Cations / Anions, me/L 11.3 / 12.2

Sodium, Na 205
Potassium, K 8
Calcium, Ca 22
Magnesium, Mg 13
Total Hardness, CaCO3 109
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.5 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 121
Chloride, Cl 91
Carbonate, CO3 20
Bicarbonate, HCO3 85
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 104
Fluoride, F 1.05
Total Iron, Fe 0.05

This is local tap water (sourced from ground water).

thatjonguy is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-15-2013, 08:12 PM   #595
ajdelange
Senior Member
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 5,203
Liked 452 Times on 371 Posts
Likes Given: 13

Default

I'm afraid there isn't much you can do here. The sodium level is pretty high and the sulfate level is even beyond the EPA's SMCL. Unless you are willing to restrict yourself to a very limited range of beer styles you will have to run this water through an RO system or obtain water from another source.

__________________
ajdelange is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-15-2013, 10:27 PM   #596
thatjonguy
Now with 57.93% more awesome!
Feedback Score: 8 reviews
 
thatjonguy's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North Central, North Dakota
Posts: 1,782
Liked 195 Times on 134 Posts
Likes Given: 17

Default

That is what I came up with besides maybe blending with RO. But a second is very much appreciated. Thanks AJ!

thatjonguy is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-27-2013, 07:08 AM   #597
Larso
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Dublin, Meath
Posts: 216
Liked 9 Times on 6 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

I'm doing a dunkel weissbier with 3.9% black patent malt(carafa special 3). Should I skip the sauermalz altogether or just reduce it a little? I assume I treat it as a soft water beer otherwise(with CaCl)?

thanks

L
Just doughed in. Used 50g sauermalz. Not as dark as porter but dark anyway

__________________
Larso is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-05-2013, 10:22 PM   #598
NanoMan
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 101
Liked 8 Times on 8 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thatjonguy View Post
Anyone have any thoughts on this?

pH 9.3
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 720
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 1.20
Cations / Anions, me/L 11.3 / 12.2

Sodium, Na 205
Potassium, K 8
Calcium, Ca 22
Magnesium, Mg 13
Total Hardness, CaCO3 109
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.5 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 121
Chloride, Cl 91
Carbonate, CO3 20
Bicarbonate, HCO3 85
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 104
Fluoride, F 1.05
Total Iron, Fe 0.05

This is local tap water (sourced from ground water).
I thought it was a sample from the Portal to hell they just discovered in Turkey! that's some rough agua you have. Imperial Dortmunder?
__________________
NanoMan is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-05-2013, 10:33 PM   #599
NanoMan
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 101
Liked 8 Times on 8 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

I've done nearly 50 batches now using the E-Z Water Calc spreadsheet. There has been a very good correlation between predicted mash pH and measured. I admit to being impressed at how powerful NaHCO3 is in raising mash pH inthe mash. For instance, a 24.5 lb mash came in with a pH at 4.92. Adding only 2 gm of NaHCO3 brought it to 5.25. This has been consistent. Post boil pH has been within targets and the beers are turining out well.

__________________
NanoMan is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-06-2013, 01:26 AM   #600
thatjonguy
Now with 57.93% more awesome!
Feedback Score: 8 reviews
 
thatjonguy's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: North Central, North Dakota
Posts: 1,782
Liked 195 Times on 134 Posts
Likes Given: 17

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NanoMan View Post

I thought it was a sample from the Portal to hell they just discovered in Turkey! that's some rough agua you have. Imperial Dortmunder?
Maybe, lol. All that sulfate has a very mild laxative effect, so all the visitors usually feel better after they leave...


__________________
Great White North Approved Fermentation Chamber Build


Make A Wish (bMAW) thread for brewery swag/merchandise!
thatjonguy is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My Water Chemistry Gremlyn Brew Science 23 12-22-2012 01:22 PM
Question on Water Chemistry meschaefer Brew Science 7 11-02-2010 09:39 PM
Help: Water Chemistry - ppm vs mg/L carp Brew Science 2 10-10-2009 06:54 PM
water chemistry - adjust top-up water? JLem Brew Science 12 09-23-2009 12:11 AM
Water chemistry noob Yooper Brew Science 48 09-03-2009 07:21 PM