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Old 12-20-2012, 11:55 PM   #531
andycr
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I'm a beginner to water chemistry, but I sometimes use slaked lime when I simply can't get enough calcium any other way and don't want to resort to chalk. Pretty rare case though.



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Old 12-20-2012, 11:56 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by afr0byte View Post
I've never brewed a Dortmunder, so I can't provide specific numbers, but in general you want a lot of minerals in a Dortmunder.
yeah. its pretty intimidating. So Since I was basiclly dilluting my existing profile to match munich's for the last few brews, then on the dortmunder profile it states a sulfate of 330ppm and Chloride 130ppm. going from 18/8 to 330/130 is pretty intense.


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I just got a Mr Beer kit and want to brew a Double Imperial Blueberry Heffy Witesit....we have no air conditioning and live next to the sun...do you think I can logger and bottle this in time for a party I will be having next week?
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:00 PM   #533
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Delete please

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Old 01-08-2013, 07:21 PM   #534
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excellent info! with this and a water profile i can't go wrong!

GD

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Old 01-09-2013, 10:24 PM   #535
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Default Sauermalz v. Lactic acid (for sparging)

How much does sauermalz malt reduce the pH of the sparge? How does this affect the sauermalz strategy for pH reduction?

Sparging with high pH water is associated with higher tannin extraction, so I'd like to lower the sparge pH. At the same time, the sauermalz malt strategy will surely leave some residual acidity that will lower the sparge pH. Because of this, it seems wiser to use lactic acid for both the mash and sparge water, because then one doesn't have to estimate the residual acidity left in the sauermalz malt. Does this make sense? Is there any benefit to using sauermalz malt instead of bottled lactic acid if they are the same thing, but the latter is easier to control for sparging (using a graduated dropper)?

Question for A.J.:

You recommend in the original post that one dilute water with RO or DI if there is high alkalinity. Can one not simply combat this with acid? My city water profile is as follows:

Calcium (Ca ppm): 35
Magnesium (Mg ppm): 9
Sodium (Na ppm): 14
Chloride (Cl ppm): 27
Sulfate (SO4 ppm): 28
Alkalinity (CaCO3 ppm): 124
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:21 AM   #536
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There wouldn't be any excess acidity because one uses only enough acid to overcome the mash water and malt alkalinity. Thus the pH of the runoff will start to increase as soon as sparge water is added. The question is 'how fast?' It is entirely possible that you will be able to sparge to the desired level of runoff extract without breaking pH 6 and without using acid in the sparge water. It is pretty clear that you have a better chance of having things work out this way with DI or RO water than you would with highly alkaline water from some other source. To be absolutely safe you can acidify the sparge water to pH 6 or a little below. It should be clear that no amount of dilution will cause the pH to drop below 6.

You can acidify mash with sauermalz or acid but you should not acidify sparge water with sauemalz and you especially should not compute the amount of sauermalz required to acidify the sparge water and then add that to the mash as this would cause the mash pH to go too low. The big advantage of sauermalz, IMO, is the 1% w/w per 0.1 pH rule. This means no calculations you can't do in your head. A secondary benefit is that sauermalz is a specialty malt and conveys some flavors which are, IMO, beneficial to certain styles of beer.

The Question: Keep in mind that most of alkalinity comes from bicarbonate ion HCO3- and that this is disposed of when acid HAn with An representing the anion of the acid by

HAn + HCO3- ---> CO2 + H2O + An-

Thus every milliequivalent of bicarbonate removed by acid is replaced by 1 mEq of An-. In some cases this can be a benefit. For example, British brewers with low sulfate and chloride by high bicarbonate can replace the bicarbonate with sulfate and chloride ions from, respectively, sulfuric and hydrochloric acids. If, conversely, your water is high in sulfate, chloride and bicarbonate, neither sulfuric nor hydrochloric acid is a good choice for bicarbonate reduction. In such cases most brewers would probably use phosphoric acid as the phosphate ion is flavor neutral. Another popular choice is lactic acid but lactate is pretty strongly flavored and if a lot of bicarbonate has to be disposed of more lactate than is pleasing might be required.

The water cited has an alkalinity of 2.48 mEq/L. To get rid of most of it (2 mEq/L) would add 96 mg/L SO4-- if sulfuric acid were added or 70 mg/L chloride or some combination of less than those amounts of each totalling 2 mEq. Lactic and phosphoric amounts are a little harder to compute and it's late so I'm not doing it.

Another reason many favor dilution rather than acid addition is that if the source water is variable the amount of acid to be added is variable and can only be determined by measuring the alkalinity before each brew. A way around this is to simply add acid to the brewing water (no grains) until the pH reaches mash pH. That will get rid of about 80% of the alkalinity. Sierra Nevada does this, for example.

Remember that an important part of the primer is the KISS principle. Fiddling with acids, pH meters and alkalinity test kits is not part of the beginner's KISS approach.

Just to be sure the question gets answered the answer is not only yes, it can be done that way but that in fact many do.

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Old 01-10-2013, 06:18 AM   #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post

The water cited has an alkalinity of 2.48 mEq/L. To get rid of most of it (2 mEq/L) would add 96 mg/L SO4-- if sulfuric acid were added or 70 mg/L chloride or some combination of less than those amounts of each totalling 2 mEq. Lactic and phosphoric amounts are a little harder to compute and it's late so I'm not doing it.
Thanks for the reply A.J. It's very much appreciated.

I brewed a 5.5 gal batch immediately after my last message, so I didn't have a chance to read your message. I added some gypsum and a touch of calcium chloride, as well as 4.5ml of lactic acid to the water before I heated it and added it to the MLT. The spreadsheet said I'd hit around 5.46 pH with those additions (water only), which, when combined with malt, would result in a 5.46 - 0.25 = ~ 5.2 pH. After draining that off, I then added enough lactic acid to the sparge water to also hit 5.46 (before hitting the grain). Therefore, the mash and sparge pH, before they hit any malt, were the same. Was this reasonable?

As an aside, I need to treat the mash and sparge water separately unfortunately. But in adding roughly the same amount of lactic acid per gal, the pH of both the mash and sparge water should be the same before being added to the MLT. Next time I may split the gypsum and calcium chloride additions similarly so the mash and sparge water will be identical.

I'll invest in a pH meter soon so I can dial the pH in. I'll also try some acidulated malt next time (for the added flavour complexity), which I have plenty of here, but haven't used because I figured lactic acid additions would be easier.

Any suggestions?

Edit: I'm just realizing now that adding that much acid is going to change the flavour of the beer. What should I have done differently to ensure that the sparge water's pH isn't too high (other than dilution)?
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:01 PM   #538
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I decided to add all of my salts to the mash, approximating as close as possible total water (mash, sparge etc.).
Here are some results from brews this weekend, room temp pH, theoretical pH as calcualted by EZWaterCalc:

Theoretical pH Actual Mash pH Post boil pH Post Ferment pH OG
Brown Ale 5.5 5.62 5.15 TBD 1.059

Stout 5.55 5.98 5.36 TBD 1.064

Helles 5.4 5.34 5.23 TBD 1.052


The darker beers came out with higher pH and the Helles with lower. More data (i.e., more brews!) is needed.

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Old 01-11-2013, 04:30 AM   #539
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Are you putting chalk, bicarbonate or lime in your mashes?

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Old 01-16-2013, 06:50 PM   #540
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Hmm.. I guess I am lucky..

All my water I got straight from the tap and the top-off water straight from the tap no boiling. No problems and beer so far tastes great.

That said our water is fairly soft and clean. I had aquariums and barely had to do anything to the water until after the fish were in it.



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