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Old 06-21-2011, 05:38 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by wildwest450 View Post
bump again, no one's going to see this if you guy's keep commenting.
We had a good side discussion over in this thread:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/i-have-confused-myself-sauermalz-ro-water-245378/

Definitely worth a read. My takeaway is that adding phosphoric acid primarily neturalizes the alkalinity, causing H + HCO3 -> H2O + CO2. There is a lot of calcium and phosphate present in malt, so AJ advocates keeping the calcium low; how much additional calcium is precipitated out as calcium phosphate during the mash/boil I don't know since I don't understand all of the reactions involved, but it seems after our discussion there that it would actually be beneficial to the finished beer if it removes some of the excess calcium you are adding with a CaCl2 addition by precipitating it out. What I have noticed is that none is precipitated out if I simply add enough acid to the water to neutralize the alkalinity -- until the pH drops below about 5.7 the water is still clear, but if I add more phosphoric acid once all the alkalinity has been neutralized, the water turns cloudy which seems to indicate visually I'm precipitating out calcium phosphate or calcium carbonate.

As I mentioned over in that thread jack my water is low in sodium but has 46ppm free calcium so I use regular (un-iodized!) table salt for chloride ions, and gypsum (at a rate of no more than 1tsp per 5 gallons) for sulfates, and dial in the mash pH using lactic or phosphoric acid additions from Palmer's spreadsheet. I have tried to match water profiles a few times and whenever I tried it I found the resulting beer unsatisfactory. When it comes to water, it seems that KISS actually wins... With what I know now, I may switch to sulfuric acid when I want to increase sulfate, so I can avoid adding any additional calcium.


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Old 06-28-2011, 02:32 PM   #132
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There is a lot of calcium and phosphate present in malt, so AJ advocates keeping the calcium low; how much additional calcium is precipitated out as calcium phosphate during the mash/boil I don't know since I don't understand all of the reactions involved, but it seems after our discussion there that it would actually be beneficial to the finished beer if it removes some of the excess calcium you are adding with a CaCl2 addition by precipitating it out. .
When you say "low calcium" what are levels are you suggesting? My untreated water has 35ppm of Calcium, and I've been aiming for 65-75 or so in my recent batches. Mostly, I'm thinking about the Ca necessary for yeast (which seems to be around 50-60ppm) or so.

But are you suggesting that because of the Ca in the malt we should aim for even lower numbers than 50ppm?


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Old 06-30-2011, 02:53 PM   #133
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This is my attempt to convert AJ's units from teaspoons to grams, and account for the anhydrous form of Calcium Chloride instead of the dihydrate form. I assumed that 3/4 teaspoon of anhydrous Calcium Chloride is equivalent to 1 teaspoon of the dihydrate form and weighs 2.6 grams, and that 1 teaspoon of Gypsum weighs 4 grams. I then expressed the concentrations in parts per million when added to 5 gallons of water. For example, beginning with AJ's starting water, the baseline recommendation of "1 teaspoon Calcium Chloride (AJ used the dihydrate form) to each 5 gallons of treated water" results in 69 ppm Ca, 20 ppm Mg, 20 ppm Na, 20 ppm SO4, 108 ppm Cl, and a Sulfate to Chloride ratio of .23 when adjusted for the anhydrous form of Calcium Chloride.

A.J.'s Results (Starting water + Additions) for 5 gal of water (in ppm)
Calcium Magnesium Sodium Sulfate Chloride SO4/Cl2
Baseline 69 20 20 20 108 0.23
Pils, Heles, Hefes 45 20 20 20 64 0.38
Stouts, Porters 69 20 20 20 108 0.23
British / Light Ales 119 20 20 138 108 1.60
IPA, Export, Burton Ales 217 20 20 256 196 1.68

The formatting sucks - it looked good when I was typing it but now that its been posted it looks cluttered. I think copying it and pasting into a word processing app will make it more readable.

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Old 08-13-2011, 09:49 PM   #134
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I've tried my best to "clean up" this sticky.

Everyone, please post specific questions about specific water profiles in a new thread. Thanks!

This sticky is for the "nuts and bolts" of the water chemistry primer, while questions and answers have been getting lost in here and making this resource sluggish. Thanks!

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Old 08-13-2011, 10:22 PM   #135
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-deleted-answered elsewhere,didn't read the above post properly!

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Old 08-17-2011, 05:06 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildwest450

The stuff I got is only 10%, no discernible odor.

_
Well, I mentioned before that I hadn't seen phosphoric acid anywhere, but as luck would have it, my lhbs JUST started carrying it. I picked up a gallon jug of the stuff - 70%. I take it this should last quite a while?

Interestingly, it's a Five Star product. It even has instructions for yeast washing right on the side of the jug.
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Old 08-17-2011, 05:22 PM   #137
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I take it this should last quite a while?
25 lifetimes, and that's conservative.

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Old 08-17-2011, 07:27 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by wildwest450

25 lifetimes, and that's conservative.

_
Hmmm. He mentioned that he was getting a smaller size in soon as well. But the whole jug cost me $20 (and pretty much everything at my LHBS is overpriced), so I just went for it.

Still, it's a heck of a lot cheaper than a sack of acidulated malt, let alone a lifetime supply.

But, a question for AJ: How much 70% phosphoric acid should I add to reproduce the pH adjustment per percentage point of sauermalz?
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Old 08-28-2011, 11:01 PM   #139
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AJ,

One quick question --- I use distilled water for brewing, so from your baseline numbers if I am brewing a British beer (say a Brown Ale) I should use 1tsp Calcium Chloride (baseline) + 1 tsp Gypsum and 1 MORE tsp Calcium Chloride? OR just 1 tsp each of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride per 5 gal of water.

Also --- Do I need to treat the sparge water also with salts ? My total water volume is around 9 gal per batch so do I treat just the mash, or for both the mash and the sparge water?

If I am using Latic Acid(88%) instead of sauermalz what amount do I need to use to equal the 2% sauermalz per batch?

Thanks and much appreciated !

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Old 08-29-2011, 11:58 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by EROK View Post

One quick question --- I use distilled water for brewing, so from your baseline numbers if I am brewing a British beer (say a Brown Ale) I should use 1tsp Calcium Chloride (baseline) + 1 tsp Gypsum and 1 MORE tsp Calcium Chloride? OR just 1 tsp each of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride per 5 gal of water.
I'd start with one of each and adjust from there in subsequent brews. High sulfate (from gypsum) is traditional in some British beers but not all. The more sulfate you add the more assertive the hops become. Conversely chloride softens, rounds and sweetens the beer. It is really a matter of hitting the combination that gives you the result you like best which is not likely to be the same for all beers. In a German style you would use no sulfate, for example

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Also --- Do I need to treat the sparge water also with salts ? My total water volume is around 9 gal per batch so do I treat just the mash, or for both the mash and the sparge water?
No you wouldn't need to treat the sparge water from the POV of preventing phenol extraction but you would probably want to from the POV of carrying the desired sulfate, choride and calcium levels into the fermentor. A brewery usually brews with the water it has. You are emulating that water and thus it ought to be the same for all steps in the process.


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If I am using Latic Acid(88%) instead of sauermalz what amount do I need to use to equal the 2% sauermalz per batch?
Sauermalz is generally considered to contain about 2% lactic acid w/w. Thus 1 pound of sauermalz (454 grams) would contain 9.1 grams of lactic. Lactic acid is usually sold as 88% w/w so 9.1 grams of pure acid is found in 9.1/0.88 = 10.3 grams of 88% acid. The 88% acid weighs 1.2 grams/cc so 10.3 grams corresponds to 10.3/1.2 = 8.6 cc. This is one of the reasons I prefer to use the sauermalz - the calculation is simple (1% per 0.1 pH drop sought). The other is that it add subtle flavor complexity to beers brewed with it.


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