Jcoz

Recipes 

I am trying to dive into Brewing Water as a whole, but its a large subject and I have a brewday I can't pass up on Saturday.

I was hoping I could get a quick look over my shoulder for the adjustments I'm planning on making this weekend.

I have a PH meter so I will be able to take some good notes for future reference, but is there anything that seems wildly off-base in terms of brewing a Dunkelweizen in the below breakdown (EZ-water calc printout)

I would be very appreciative of anyone who took the time to take a look.

This page can be used for copying and pasting

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 16
Mg: 1
Na: 4
Cl: 6
SO4: 12
HCO3: 34

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4 / 4.5
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 12.8

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 2.5 / 2.8125
MgSO4: 3.5 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 3

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 61 / 61
Mg: 23 / 11
Na: 4 / 4
Cl: 86 / 86
SO4: 102 / 54
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.84 / 1.57

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -128
RA: -185
Estimated pH: 5.59
(room temp)

Jcoz

Recipes 

Fixed

ajdelange

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Everything looks good except for the magnesium sulfate. That contributes both magnesium and sulfate neither of which are desirable for a dunkleweizen. If you can possibly swing it before brew day do a test mash - put a bit of each of the grains you plan to use in the proper proportions into a beaker and add water at about the grain/water ratio you intend to use. Keep at the mash in temp and check the pH after about 20 min. Adjust the sauermalz according to what you read.

mabrungard

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I would not add any Mg and I would not boost the sulfate that high either. I'm surprised that AJ didn't protest that sulfate level more loudly.

Another consideration is that its unlikely that additional acid will be needed for a dunkelweizen grist, I would not boost the Ca any higher than about 50 ppm in order to avoid depressing the RA any further. If the test grist results in too low a mash pH, a little alkalinity might be appropriate.

__________________
Martin Brungard, P.E. D.WRE
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Jcoz

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Thank you, I will tinker a bit more in the morning and repost some numbers. Unfortunately I cannot make a reliable mini mash, I ordered it as a whole recipe from brewmasters warehouse, so it's ground together and I'll have no way of knowing what the individual %'s of the grains I end up with. I'll cut the Mg and see where it lands me. I think I will need some sourmaltz because lowering the calcium a bit and removing the mg will put me right on the upper edge of the ph range at mash temps.

Jcoz

Recipes 

So I did some tinkering based on the suggestions that were made, and here are two different scenarios, one with sourmalz and one without.

I guess the questions that come to mind are these:

From what I have read, the Cl to SO4 Ratio is more important than sheer amount of sulfate...if this is the case, at what point is that ratio too lopsided? Here I am well into the malty side of things already, why elimiante the sulfate altogether? Using Bru'n Water, the target range for Amber Malty has nearly a 1:1 ratio for example.

Another question is regarding the sourmalz, why would I NOT want to use the sourmalz? As a general question?

The estimated PH without the sourmalz is 5.75@ room temps, so that would theoretically put me right on the upper edge of the the target here (at mash temp), while the sourmalz can put me squarley in the middle? I understand this is not a perfect model, but unless there is some reason that sourmaltz shouldn't be used, I would think putting myself in the middle of the estimated range is better than the edge of the range I'd want to hit....

This is with 2% sourmalz

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 16
Mg: 1
Na: 4
Cl: 6
SO4: 12
HCO3: 34

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4 / 4.5
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 12.8

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0.5 / 0.5625
CaCl2: 2 / 2.25
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 4

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 60 / 60
Mg: 1 / 1
Na: 4 / 4
Cl: 70 / 70
SO4: 30 / 30
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 2.29 / 2.29

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -180
RA: -223
Estimated pH: 5.55
(room temp)




This is with no sourmalz:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 16
Mg: 1
Na: 4
Cl: 6
SO4: 12
HCO3: 34

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4 / 4.5
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 12.8

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0.5 / 0.5625
CaCl2: 2 / 2.25
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 60 / 60
Mg: 1 / 1
Na: 4 / 4
Cl: 70 / 70
SO4: 30 / 30
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 2.29 / 2.29

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 28
RA: -15
Estimated pH: 5.75
(room temp)

Jcoz

Recipes 

I ran a report through Bru'n Water and have an estimated PH of 5.2, and read the thread here talking about the differences in the models and how your best tools are adjustments on the fly and your PH meter.

If I left out the sourmalz, and had to adjust the mash PH on the fly, I think it takes 20 min to stabilize, how long would it take for the sourmalz to affect the PH, another 20 min? And if you did tinker in this way, would you restart the mash time there or still mash for the total time you originally intended?

I wonder then if Lactic Acid would be a more effective solution for on the fly adjustments or not....

Yooper

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Yes, or phosphoric acid. I have them on hand.

__________________
Broken Leg Brewery
Giving beer a leg to stand on since 2006

ajdelange

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That assertion is highly questionable. In continental brewing sulfate is generally avoided as it lends what is considered a harsh nature to hops and I certainly must agree that in my opinion where noble hops are used that is true.

Because with a wheat beer you want the hops to be like the violas in an orchestra. Certainly not the instrument that carries the main theme but if they weren't there the whole would be diminished. If you add sulfate to the water the hops would become more like a razzy sax.

The chloride sulfate ratio thing is one of those straws which home brewers have grasped at in order to try to simplify what is an extremely complex process. Wouldn't it be nice if we could set RA and SO4:Cl based on the color we want and the degree of maltiness and hoppiness? Problem is that it isn't that simple by a long shot. There is only a very weak correlation between color and the RA of the water it was brewed with and malt flavors and hops flavors are in no way antipodal as the notion of control by a ratio implies. As a general observation German brewers try to avoid sulfate wherever possible though, of course, some fine German beers are brewed with gypseous waters. The SO4:Cl2 ratio concept was extracted from a paragraph in the second edition of Brewing Handbook and granted star billing by home brewers. If possible read the water chapter in that book and see if you think it deserves star billing.


Sauermalz adds distinctive flavor qualities to beer. These are subtle, again like the violas in an orchestra, and most people find them flavor positive. But you may not for whatever reasons related to personal taste.

Some find it easier to calculate the volume of a particular strength of lactic or phosphoric acid than to throw in 1% sauermalz for each 0.1 pH drop desired. I don't understand this but some people do feel that way.

Finally, in an extreme case i.e. where lots of acid is used the requisite amount of sauermalz (or lactic acid) may be such that the beer tastes lactic. A more neutral flavored acid such as phosphoric would be a better choice in such a case if the lactic flavor is not wanted.


I would too.

ajdelange

Recipes 

This is a real problem. You have to break eggs to make an omelet and you have to accept that not all your beers are going to be fantastic until you get material and procedure 'dialed in'. If you dough in find the early mash pH is 5.7 you immediately know that you are in trouble because it is only going to rise over time. You can, therefore, add lactic acid or sauermalz right away. If, 20 minutes later your pH is off you can add more sauermalz or base to try to get it back into line. If you can pull that off before the enzymes are denatured by heat you will have a good beer but if you don't you have still gained because you will know next time what you should do i.e. add more sauermalz.

The liquid acids give a faster response than sauermalz because with sauermalz the acid has to be dissolved out of the sauermalz and into the base malt. With liquid acids part one is already done.