Electric Brewing Supply 30A BCS Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > Bacterium getting resistant on one type of sanitizer?
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 12-15-2012, 08:02 PM   #11
theredben
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Langley, BC
Posts: 934
Liked 23 Times on 22 Posts
Likes Given: 9

Default

I think there is a bit of confusion here regarding the term "resistance". On any given surface there is a diverse community of microorganisms, which all differe in their suceptibility to a given sanitizer. With repeated use of the same sanitizer, the issue is not that the bacteria will become resistant (extremely unlikely on a homebrewer level), but that a certain bacteria or wild yeast which is already resistant will now thrive on the surface without any competition. This is not natural selection, but rather a chemical selection mechanism.

The sanitizers used in brewing are extremely effective against the organisms were are concerned with, and the ones resistant to the sanitizers are not going to be an issue in the beer due to pH, alcohol, or oxygen content.

__________________
theredben is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-17-2012, 12:46 PM   #12
Warthaug
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: , Ontario
Posts: 505
Liked 102 Times on 68 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

We're getting off topic, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by theredben View Post
I think there is a bit of confusion here regarding the term "resistance". On any given surface there is a diverse community of microorganisms, which all differe in their suceptibility to a given sanitizer.
Depends on the sanitizer; no organism on earth will be resistant to a 10% bleach solution or 12ppm iodine. The various carbohydrates, lipids, and nucleic acids life is made up of are simply far too reactive with these substances for resistance of any meaningful sort to be possible.

Now sanitizers based on pH, organic sanitizers, etc, are another story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theredben View Post
With repeated use of the same sanitizer, the issue is not that the bacteria will become resistant (extremely unlikely on a homebrewer level), but that a certain bacteria or wild yeast which is already resistant will now thrive on the surface without any competition. This is not natural selection, but rather a chemical selection mechanism.
You are partially correct - used correctly it is unlikely that exposed organisms will evolve resistance, and if resistant organisms are present*, they can then flourish. However, used incorrectly (i.e. too low a concentration, or too sort an exposure), and resistance can arise in beer-spoilers from repeated exposures. Resistance will increase over successive exposures, as mutation & gene transfer enrich the frequency and potency of resistance genes in the population.

That said, it is natural selection if you consider humans part of nature...selection is selection, with the same end-effect, regardless of its source.

*'if they are present' is a key point here. Most of the microorganisms you will find on the average home surface will not be of the sort resistant to things like low pH or sulfates.

Bryan
__________________
Brewing: Black Mamba IPA
Drinking: SWIMBO's cider, Hail Brett-tania all-brett porter, African Queen Stout
Upcoming:
Wines: Petit Noir, Liebfraumilch, Shiraz

My blog: Recipes, Wild Yeasts, Yeast Farming, Yeast Exchange & More!
Warthaug is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-17-2012, 02:19 PM   #13
ColoHox
Compulsive Hand Washer
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
ColoHox's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posts: 1,189
Liked 149 Times on 118 Posts
Likes Given: 167

Default

I love the science, it is my career. Although we have concluded, as mentioned by many posters, that these sanitizers are effective WHEN USED CORRECTLY. Beyond that, the mechanisms of developing resistance, the selection over time of resistant organisms involved in spoilage, and conditions provided by various sanitizing solutions, is not a relevant concern of the homebrewer.

__________________

Bacteria are the only culture some people have.

ColoHox is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-17-2012, 02:41 PM   #14
BridgewaterBrewer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bridgewater, NJ
Posts: 259
Liked 17 Times on 15 Posts
Likes Given: 116

Default

I actually am a microbiologist, and I agree with Warthaug, Bryan and ColoHox that if used properly, we don't need to worry about resistance developing. The main concern is making sure there are no scratches or biofilm/scum that the bacteria are hiding in. Bacteria in a biofilm can be 100 times harder to kill. So if I got an infection I'd swap equipment or processes before I considered swapping the disinfectant, assuming you're using something 100% effective like starsan or iodine.

__________________
BridgewaterBrewer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Just started brewing, what type of sanitizer do you recommend? BonzoAPD Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 11 10-24-2012 06:54 PM
How resistant are rhizomes to water rustbucket Hops Growing 3 04-21-2011 03:15 AM
Heat resistant tubing Guidry Equipment/Sanitation 1 11-26-2010 10:14 PM
Steam-resistant caulk/sealant broadbill Equipment/Sanitation 1 07-10-2009 05:12 PM
Water Resistant Labels C4PNJ4ZZ Label Display & Discussion 2 06-26-2009 12:14 PM