Spike Brewing 12.5 Conical Fermenter Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > Advise on 1st water treatment

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-09-2011, 10:25 PM   #1
sco999
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North of Nowhere
Posts: 47
Default Advise on 1st water treatment

I could use some input on my water.
I am looking at adjusting my water for an American IPA. I am a little confused about what SRM value to use. I am adding 1/2 lb of carafa III for the last 15min of the mash to raise the SRM. I was thinking of splitting the difference the SRM is 10 without and 18 with the carafa III. Also, I am a little concerned with my alkalinity. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 49
Mg: 17
Na: 20
Cl: 26
SO4: 33
CaCO3: 144

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 11 / 7.25
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 29
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 2.5
Roasted Grain: 0.5
Beer Color (SRM): 14

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 15 / 9.886363636
CaCl2: 3 / 1.977272727
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 150 / 150
Mg: 17 / 17
Na: 20 / 20
Cl: 61 / 61
SO4: 234 / 234
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.26 / 0.26

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 144
RA: 27
Estimated pH: 5.37
_________________

__________________
sco999 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-10-2011, 11:19 AM   #2
KAMMEE
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Peoria, Illinois
Posts: 388
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

I don't really want to start a debate here, but there is much debate on the validity of the SRM values being used in the water spreadsheets as they over simplify a very complex relationship and make some assumptions to use that formula that may not be appropriate for some beers.

Your Carafa counts as a roasted malt, so in theory it should help lower the PH for the duration of its contact with the mash, though probably not by much if you're just adding some color with an ounce or two. I would not use it in your calculations to set the PH. What I would suggest, is that you add the carafa after you run off, then when you add your sparge throw it in as your sparge water will raise the pH of the mash so the carafa will add color you want and help a little with keeping PH in check (though its contribution will be minimal with only an ounce or so in the grain bill).

I wish I could comment in depth on your hardness, but I am not a water expert, only started diving into it recently. From what I know, your hardness is a little higher than what you would want to start with as you'll be raising that number with your salt additions. I am pretty sure that Ajdelange would recomend that you cut this water with some RO to get it down to an appropriate level. Based on what I know, it looks like you could get to reasonable alkalinity levels by using 50-60% RO water. AJ may chime in here and give you more advice that is more meaningful on the Alkalinity component.

__________________
KAMMEE is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-10-2011, 11:21 AM   #3
KAMMEE
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Peoria, Illinois
Posts: 388
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Oh, one more thing, you don't have any lactic acid or sauermalz to help set your PH... I'm pretty sure you'll need that. Maybe about 2% sauermalz based on AJ's water chemistry primer thread.

__________________
KAMMEE is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-10-2011, 05:07 PM   #4
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 5,798
Liked 562 Times on 463 Posts
Likes Given: 15

Default

I won't further the discussions concerning the relationship between SRM and color chemistry any further here than to say that there is little correlation (I didn't say no correlation) between beer color and water chemistry. When using the spreadsheets I guess I'd advise setting the SRM to whatever value causes them to suggest an RA of 0 thus effectively turning the SRM related part off. From there you should be able to proceed with the use of the spreadsheet with getting led astray.

Yes, your alkalinity is quite high and it would probably be a good idea to deal with that by dilution with RO water. It would take a 3:1 (DI:tap) dilution to cut the alkalinity back to 36 (a much better level) but that would knock calcium back to 12 as well so calcium would need to be augmented. If you want a lot of dry, assertive hop quality then supplement sulfate too. The guidelines in the Primer are intended to get brewers unfamiliar with the intricacies of water chemistry started.

The pH is going to go where it is going to go. It's not really that predictable more than very roughly. With a mash based on diluted calcium augmented water you would probably get a mash pH somewhere in the 6's if you used a base malt like a Pils malt and probably in the 5's if you used Maris Otter. The actual value will depend on the titratable acidity of the colored malts. It is quite possible, in fact probable, that you will need acid in some form (sauermalz or lactic) to get to proper mash pH.

I strongly recommend that every brewer obtain and use a pH meter. They are not expensive. All the modeling, spreadsheets, programs in the world are pretty feeble substitutes for being able to see what is actually happening and control for it.

__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-10-2011, 05:41 PM   #5
sco999
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North of Nowhere
Posts: 47
Default

Thank You so much.
I think I am going to go with 75% RO Water, and 2% acid malt.
How does this look for an American IPA with some assertive hop quality?

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 49
Mg: 17
Na: 20
Cl: 26
SO4: 33
CaCO3: 144

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 11 / 7.25
RO or distilled %: 75% / 75%

Total Grain (lb): 28.5
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 2.5
Roasted Grain: 0.5
Beer Color (SRM): 8

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 14 / 9.227272727
CaCl2: 9 / 5.931818182
MgSO4: 5 / 3.295454545
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 8

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 148 / 148
Mg: 15 / 15
Na: 5 / 5
Cl: 111 / 111
SO4: 243 / 243
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.46 / 0.46

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -115
RA: -230
Estimated pH: 5.22

__________________
sco999 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-10-2011, 06:24 PM   #6
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 5,798
Liked 562 Times on 463 Posts
Likes Given: 15

Default

Looks fine. You can skip the Epsom salts if you want. Magnesium doesn't contribute to pH lowering by much but it does make the beer bitter. Shouldn't at 15 mg/L though and there are those that claim it is good for the heart.

__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Water treatment questions Patirck Brew Science 17 02-28-2011 02:57 PM
Water treatment question cjsturch Brew Science 6 02-09-2011 07:52 PM
Conflicting advice on water treatment? vNate Brew Science 7 12-04-2010 01:18 PM
Water treatment with campden. AshtrayDinner Brew Science 4 05-21-2010 07:15 PM
basic water treatment? ohad Brew Science 6 09-09-2009 05:45 AM