Happy HolidaySs Giveaway - Last Sponsor Giveaway of the Year!

Come Enter the BrewDeals/FastFerment Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > Adjusting water - Mash / Sparge
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-01-2012, 09:21 PM   #11
Tiroux
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Thurso, Québec
Posts: 466
Liked 9 Times on 7 Posts

Default

Good informations.
I don't have equipment to measure the gravity directly out the sparge, I can only measure to total gravity of the wort. I usually only target my pre-boil gravity. But, I usually mash in with a high water/grain volume (3L/Kg or a bit higher) so I don't oversparge. This gives me a bit lower efficiency, but like said, it's not a concern for me. I prefer the safest method. Costs be a few bucks more of grain, no big deal.

__________________
Tiroux is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-01-2012, 09:41 PM   #12
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 6,267
Liked 634 Times on 524 Posts
Likes Given: 19

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiroux View Post
I don't have equipment to measure the gravity directly out the sparge, I can only measure to total gravity of the wort.
I am intrigued by this statement. I'm guessing that it means you don't have a convenient way to get a sample at the output of the lauter tun. You must have a hydrometer.
__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-01-2012, 10:30 PM   #13
helibrewer
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 1 reviews
 
helibrewer's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 3,490
Liked 248 Times on 217 Posts
Likes Given: 62

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mabrungard View Post
I have to disagree with the recommendation from helibrewer. I recommend adding minerals in proportion with the actual water volumes used for mashing and sparging. This is intended to duplicate what a brewer would see if they were brewing with water from a particular location.

There are several reactions and results from mashing, sparging, boiling, and fermentation that alter the ionic content in the finished beer. It makes no sense to try and aim for a certain ionic concentration in the kettle or beer when you can just correlate a starting water quality to a finished beer perception.

Carbonate additions should never be added unless needed in the mash. Adding carbonate to the kettle is counterproductive and if those additions raise the wort pH too high, the resulting hop character can be 'rough'. Do not take a water profile from a historic brewing city and assume it is what will make the best beer. The brewers from those cities often altered that starting water to better suit the style they were brewing. Blindly using 'city' profiles is sure to get you in trouble and produce less than stellar results.

Acidifying sparge water is typically a good idea, excepting that pH is not the criterion that should be used to assess when the acidification is adequate. The final alkalinity of the acidified water is what really counts. Using a acidification calculator like found in Bru'n Water is more appropriate than aiming for a pH value. The final pH value of properly acidified water could range between 5 and 6 depending upon the starting water alkalinity. Water that is naturally low in alkalinity (rain water, RO, distilled) do not need acidification at all.

If you are interested in learning more about brewing water chemistry, visit the Bru'n Water website and go to the Water Knowledge page.

Enjoy!
I have never heard anyone advocate putting carbonate anywhere but the kettle. Carbonate in the mash has the potential to completely trash your mash pH. The grain does a very good job of buffering the water so Calcium is generally all that is needed to help keep mash pH low...and maybe a little acid. If you through carbonate into your mash water you are asking for serious trouble unless you just want to spend your day fussing with water chemistry and your pH meter.
__________________
Something is always fermenting....
"It's Bahl Hornin'"

Primary:
Brite Tank/Lagering:
Kegged: Hefeweizen, Chocolate Hazelnut Porter, Kumquat Saison, Tart Cherry Cider, Belgian Tripel, Maibock Bock, Ommegang Abbey Ale Clone, Belgian Golden Strong, German Pils (WLP830)
Bottled: Belgian Quad (Grand Reserve), Derangement (Belgian Dark Strong)
On Deck:
My Site: www.restlesscellars.com
helibrewer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-02-2012, 01:13 AM   #14
+HopSpunge+
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: buffalo, new york
Posts: 614
Liked 65 Times on 52 Posts

Default

Great. Just great. I'm even more confused, then when I tried to start figuring out my water. I thought you adjust the total volume of water before it's used. And then brew with that water ,mash, sparge , whatever. Oh poop.

__________________
+HopSpunge+ is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-02-2012, 01:14 AM   #15
mabrungard
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Carmel, IN
Posts: 2,829
Liked 204 Times on 175 Posts
Likes Given: 24

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by helibrewer View Post
I have never heard anyone advocate putting carbonate anywhere but the kettle. Carbonate in the mash has the potential to completely trash your mash pH. The grain does a very good job of buffering the water so Calcium is generally all that is needed to help keep mash pH low...and maybe a little acid. If you through carbonate into your mash water you are asking for serious trouble unless you just want to spend your day fussing with water chemistry and your pH meter.
Ah! its so refreshing to read this!

Excessive alkalinity in either the mash or kettle is a sure method of ruining beer. I assume that Heli has one perspective of brewing water (his local water) and knows how to work with it. Unfortunately I've found that with a worldwide audience, there are actually other water characteristics that make it impossible to universally state what is mentioned above. There are plenty of places with very low alkalinity water that have to supply a measured dose of alkalinity to the mash to keep highly acidic grists from plunging the pH.

As for anyone advocating putting alkalinity in the kettle, please help me understand who those advocates are? I haven't seen it in print nor heard it from any other brewers. From my experience, there is NO reason to ever add alkalinity to the kettle. If the water used in mashing had the proper alkalinity to match the grist requirements and the mash pH fell within limit, there would never be a reason to push the kettle wort pH higher. There are definite hazards to wort pH falling outside a desirable range of about 5.2 to 5.6 in the kettle.

Heli, I look forward to learning something new! Thank you.
__________________

Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water

mabrungard is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-02-2012, 03:17 AM   #16
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 6,267
Liked 634 Times on 524 Posts
Likes Given: 19

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by +HopSpunge+ View Post
Great. Just great. I'm even more confused, then when I tried to start figuring out my water. I thought you adjust the total volume of water before it's used. And then brew with that water ,mash, sparge , whatever. Oh poop.
That is indeed the simplest way to do it and, AFAIK, the way most people do it but it is not the only way to do it. You might, for example, not have an HLT capable of holding the entire volume of water you will need for your brew day. I don't but I still treat all the water I use the same way. You might need to acidify your sparge water. You might want to add salts or acids to the kettle (I've never heard of adding chalk to it but who knows?). So don't get confused. For now just treat the whole volume and brew and consider the other techniques special or advanced or something.
__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-02-2012, 03:44 AM   #17
Tiroux
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Thurso, Québec
Posts: 466
Liked 9 Times on 7 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajdelange View Post
I am intrigued by this statement. I'm guessing that it means you don't have a convenient way to get a sample at the output of the lauter tun. You must have a hydrometer.
Yes I have a hydrometer, of course!
I mean... I don't have a ''lauter tun''. I brew in a kettle with no valve at all, and I drain the liquid from the grains with a kind of big large strainer I made. I sparge on it, and it drains out the boiling kettle. That's why I can't really read the sparge runoffs. I can read what is in the kettle, that includes the first wort. I target the gravity I need before boil. In fact, I just calculate the amount of sparge water I need before, with grain absorbtion and evaporation data.

Not the best equipment/method, but it works, and the effeciency is somewhat low, but constant, so I'm ok with it.

I'm just waiting to have a bit more money to buy a real brewing kettle.
__________________
Tiroux is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-02-2012, 03:55 AM   #18
Tiroux
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Thurso, Québec
Posts: 466
Liked 9 Times on 7 Posts

Default

That's becoming a bit confusing. I'm not that savant in water chimestry. I just need simple and quick answer.

I know the Ca, Na, Mg, SO4 and Cl concentration does to the beer, and i adjust all my water with it.

1- My water have 140ppm of HCO3. Is there a situation where I would need to add more? Like a big stout with a lot of roasted barley and black malt...

2- The Mash PH should be around 5.2 and 5.8. With my 6, 6.5 water, the grain should lower that to the right spot. Am I right? I use the ph5.2 stuff, too, maybe it can help.

3- What should be the PH at the boiling? And should I adjust if not correct.

__________________
Tiroux is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-02-2012, 10:40 AM   #19
WoodlandBrew
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
WoodlandBrew's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Malden, MA
Posts: 1,772
Liked 124 Times on 121 Posts
Likes Given: 57

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiroux View Post
1- My water have 140ppm of HCO3. Is there a situation where I would need to add more? Like a big stout with a lot of roasted barley and black malt...

2- The Mash PH should be around 5.2 and 5.8. With my 6, 6.5 water, the grain should lower that to the right spot. Am I right? I use the ph5.2 stuff, too, maybe it can help.

3- What should be the PH at the boiling? And should I adjust if not correct.
I'll take a stab at answering these. I can't give you as much background as some of the other folks, but I'll tell you what I know and what I have experience with.

1) The easiest way I have found to do it is to add CaCO3 if you dough in and your mash pH is low. Like you said, this might be for a big dark beer.

2) 5.4 is what I shoot for, so right in the middle of your range. pH strips should get you close enough. I haven't tried the 5.2 stabilizer product because I would rather add a little bit of things I know. Stabilizers seem like adding a lot of extra junk to stabilize pH.

3) I never check or adjust boil pH. I figure if it was good enough for the mash it will work in the boil.

Here is a simple blog post on the practical use of Lactic Acid. It doesn't go into the science, just what works for me
http://woodlandbrew.blogspot.com/2012/10/mash-ph.html
__________________

The 2nd edition is now available: Brewing Engineering
Woodland Brewing Research Blog Applied Science for Better Beer.

WoodlandBrew is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-02-2012, 12:46 PM   #20
mabrungard
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Carmel, IN
Posts: 2,829
Liked 204 Times on 175 Posts
Likes Given: 24

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiroux View Post
That's becoming a bit confusing. I'm not that savant in water chimestry. I just need simple and quick answer.

I know the Ca, Na, Mg, SO4 and Cl concentration does to the beer, and i adjust all my water with it.

1- My water have 140ppm of HCO3. Is there a situation where I would need to add more? Like a big stout with a lot of roasted barley and black malt...

2- The Mash PH should be around 5.2 and 5.8. With my 6, 6.5 water, the grain should lower that to the right spot. Am I right? I use the ph5.2 stuff, too, maybe it can help.

3- What should be the PH at the boiling? And should I adjust if not correct.
At 140 ppm bicarbonate, its unlikely that you would HAVE to add more. Even for a stout, it might only require a bit more and there are ways around avoiding the need. The largest concern with a water with 140 ppm bicarb is reducing it for mashes that don't have enough acidity to neutralize the excess alkalinity by itself. Then acidification is useful. This level of bicarb was what I had to deal with in Tallahassee and you can get away with using a flavorful acid like Lactic. Bru'n Water has the calculators for figuring out how much to add. Chasing pH with acid additions and pH checks is no fun and typically ends up overdosing the beer until you gain experience. Bru'n Water enables you to get close the first time. Learning to properly acidify your mash and water makes the use of 5.2 stabilizer moot. You don't need it or want it in your beer.

Water pH is nearly meaningless in brewing. Its alkalinity information that is needed and you have that. The buffering power of the mash has much more effect than the pH of the water. Please note that a mash or wort pH greater than about 5.6 is pushing it. The mention of 5.8 is playing with fire since there can be less favorable flavor effects in the beer at that level.

With proper acidification of the mash to produce a mash pH in the 5.2 to 5.6 range AND acidification of the sparging water to reduce the alkalinity, the resulting wort pH in the kettle should be below 5.6. The boil will further reduce the wort pH.
__________________

Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water

mabrungard is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Adjusting sparge water Bonde Brew Science 8 09-08-2011 10:58 PM
Adjusting Mash and Sparge water ToastedPenguin All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 2 08-05-2011 03:46 PM
Mash water profile vs sparge water tandom590 All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 2 08-04-2011 07:02 PM
mash water/sparge water ratios Budzu All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 7 07-20-2009 12:49 AM
mash water/sparge water ammounts? aoverturff Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 3 09-17-2008 04:08 AM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS