Ss Brewing Technologies Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > About to do first mash water adjustment
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 03-15-2011, 02:06 AM   #1
shushikiary
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: denver
Posts: 161
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts

Default About to do first mash water adjustment

I swore I wasnt going to be one of those guys that made a post about water adjustment after so many posts have been made on it, but here I am.

I got my water profile back from Ward and it looks fairly nice, my issue is that the total hardness is a little high, yet if I dilute the water I go below many of the "suggested" amounts of ions on the ez water calculator 2.0

So here's my water:

pH 8.1
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est 252
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.42
Cations / Anions, me/L 3.8 / 3.8
ppm
Sodium, Na 22
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca 43
Magnesium, Mg 8
Total Hardness, CaCO3 141
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.1 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 21
Chloride, Cl 43
Carbonate, CO3 3
Bicarbonate, HCO3 68
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 60

diluting the water much at all makes the sulfate and calcium go below recomendation, and my magnesium is already below. Now I've read that the magnesium isnt needed as the malt should have enough of it by its self, but I'm not sure about the rest.

What I'm trying to brew is a fat tire clone:


8 lbs 10.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 75.82 %
8.0 oz Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) Grain 4.40 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 4.40 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 4.40 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 4.40 %
8.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 4.40 %
4.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 2.20 %
0.75 oz Williamette [4.50 %] (60 min) Hops 11.7 IBU
0.50 oz Fuggles [4.00 %] (15 min) Hops 3.4 IBU
0.50 oz Fuggles [4.00 %] (5 min) Hops 1.4 IBU
0.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
mash at 154 for 45 min @ 1.25 q/lbs SRM: 15.5 5 gallon batch, with 2.45 gallons of sparge (1 gallon boil off).

If I dont delute my water at all and do no aditions what so ever, no sauermalz or anything, the magnesium is a little low and the calcium is also a little low, and the Cl:S04 ratio is for bitter (and I'd like malty). PH is estimated at 5.27. What I'd think I'd like to do is just add 2 grams of CaCl2 (no sparge water additions) to get the calcium right and push it into malty (ratio of 1.36 from .68), which also brings the mash PH down to 5.25, RA of -9 from 20. So I'd like an opinion on what I should do especially concerning dilution.

thanks!

__________________
shushikiary is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-15-2011, 02:21 AM   #2
nilo
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
nilo's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 723
Liked 23 Times on 20 Posts

Default

what is you mash water volume?
I'm new to this also but I think you are on the right path by adding just CaCl2.

Edit. OK your said 1.25qt/lb so that would be 3.36gals for mashing. I see same results.

I just brewed my first batch last Sat adjusting my water and PH came out 5.26 when calculated from EZ was 5.35, so I'm happy and excited to taste this batch and compare.

__________________
nilo is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-15-2011, 02:38 PM   #3
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 5,934
Liked 587 Times on 485 Posts
Likes Given: 16

Default

The first principle of brewing water treatment is "Alkalinity Bad" because it raises mash pH and the second is "Hardness good" because it lowers pH. The first part of this always stands. The second doesn't if you are trying to imitate a style that relies on the qualities of soft water. But as you have low alkalinity and high hardness you are in good shape for many if not most styles. My inclination with the water would be to do nothing. I'd think there is enough dark malt in there to get the pH down to 5.4-5.5 as the alkalinity is pretty much balanced by the calcium (RA = 25). It is always best to check with a pH meter but you may not want to get into that at this point.

Don't worry about the magnesium. Malt does indeed contain plenty. And calcium at 43 is fine. Now if you want to dilute and add back in some calcium chloride (though there will still be enough without) go ahead and do that as calcium is beneficial in many ways and chloride generally improves beer up to a point. Don't get hung up on chloride/sulfate ratio.

A dilution of 1:1 with RO would give a good water. Don't worry about too little sulfate. If you find the bitterness to wimpy you can always add sulfate to the next brew. Adding 3/4 gram of calcium chloride/gal to a 1:1 dilution will get you over 50 mg/L on the calcium, knock the RA into negative territory (-12).

__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-15-2011, 03:05 PM   #4
pkeeler
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 740
Liked 4 Times on 3 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Quote:
PH is estimated at 5.27. What I'd think I'd like to do is just add 2 grams of CaCl2 (no sparge water additions) to get the calcium right and push it into malty (ratio of 1.36 from .68), which also brings the mash PH down to 5.25, RA of -9 from 20. So I'd like an opinion on what I should do especially concerning dilution.
I wouldn't add the calcium to the mash, since your pH is already up against the low end. You could add some CaCO3 to bring your pH up a bit and add calcium. You could also just add epsom salt and calcium chloride to the boil pot. If you are adding salts to increase minerals, but not for lowering/raising mash pH, they don't have to go into the mash.
__________________
pkeeler is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-15-2011, 03:27 PM   #5
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 5,934
Liked 587 Times on 485 Posts
Likes Given: 16

Default

If the first principal of brewing water chemistry is "alkalinity bad" the first rule is "Never add calcium carbonate to brewing water nor to mash unless a reading from a properly calibrated pH meter shows it to be necessary". Note no mention of strips. It is quite rare than CaCO3 additions are required and so many have screwed up their beers by following strips which apparently read 0.3 low (or more) and cause the brewer to think he needs to add chalk when he doesn't. In most cases an addition of acid is required with the exception being when there is a lot of dark malt in the grist. It is even possible to require CaCO3 (or lime) but that should be only in the case of certain very dark beers (i.e. not all dark beers require it).

__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-15-2011, 04:19 PM   #6
mabrungard
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Carmel, IN
Posts: 2,714
Liked 184 Times on 161 Posts
Likes Given: 24

Default

This is a case where a change in the water/grist ratio can help alter the mash pH. Since the water has some alkalinity and the pH prediction is on the low side, increasing the quantity of water will actually increase the mash pH. I'm not sure if EZ Water takes that into account, but Bru'n Water does.

__________________

Martin B
Carmel, IN
BJCP National
Foam Blowers of Indiana (FBI)

Brewing Water Information at:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Like Bru'n Water on Facebook for occasional discussions on brewing water and Bru'n Water

mabrungard is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-15-2011, 06:58 PM   #7
shushikiary
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: denver
Posts: 161
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts

Default

Thanks for all the information.

Here I was all worried about how my water might need to be adjusted only to find out that's its pretty much perfect the way it is, haha. Gee, I wonder why fat tire is brewed in ft collins, makes sense doenst it?

Mabrungard, you're right about the mash thickness, if I up it the estimated PH goes up, that's rather interesting, for this 5 gallon batch I could actually up the mash thickness and go no sparge if I wanted, but I bet my efficiency would suffer.

So then, given all the above, what would I want to do if I wanted to brew a pilsner? Just dilute the water 1:1 and add nothing? It seems like that would work out well (I know the answer will change decently with the actual grist), and what about for a really dark stout, do I need to up the hardness, or just not dilute at all and just make sure the mash PH is right if I need to with some sauermalz?

__________________
shushikiary is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-15-2011, 08:48 PM   #8
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 5,934
Liked 587 Times on 485 Posts
Likes Given: 16

Default

Pilsen water is very soft so that Pilsner is an exception to general brewing rules. With water not too unlike yours I've always diluted 1 + 9. This will, of course, take everything, including calcium, way down to the point where an excessively high mash pH is obtained. In places where they brew this kind of beer that problem is solved through the use of lactic acid either in liquid or acidulated malt (sauermalz) form. The very low sulfate is extremely important in Pils as relatively high amounts of noble hops are used. I've made some good Pils this way but you can make it even better if you supplement the calcium chloride in the diluted water.

Really dark stouts are where it can get a little more complicated. You can brew a pretty dark (80 SRM) stout and have the pH come in just fine without any water adjustment at all. But if you pick the wrong dark grains you can undershoot pH. Really the only way to be sure is to either follow the recipe of someone else who has less alkaline water than yours (if he doesn't bust under, you won't either). If, for example, you use Ashton Lewis's Irish Draught Stourt recipe in the Brewers Publications Stout monograph (70% pale malt, 10% roast barley, 20% flaked barley) you will get about 70 SRM and the pH will go to about 5.5 with no salt additions required. Several of us here on this forum have brewed essentially that beer and this is about where it comes in. But the author himself will advise adding carbonate. If he ever brewed this beer with nominal water he should know that you don't have to do that and shouldn't. He does say that the object is to get 5.2 - 5.4 pH and adding chalk would get you higher than that. Unfortunately there are many that will tell you that you need to add chalk. You usually won't. The problem is that if you pick a different source of color i.e. other roast malts and/or use dark crystal malts there is a chance you can go to low. The only way to be sure is to check with a decent pH meter. The occasions where chalk is needed seem to be rare enough that I have formulated the Golden Rule of Brewing "Never add chalk to water nor to mash unless a pH meter reading shows it to be necessary". Some will argue that the beer tastes thin without some bicarbonate. I do encourage people to check with a meter and not add carbonate if it's not required and then brew the beer again with a bit of carbonate. Decide on which you like better and go that way in the future.

You shouldn't need sauermalz with a stout (though if I follow Lewis's recommendation WRT to pH when brewing his recipe I would need some to get down to 5.4 or less). For Pils it is pretty much necessary.

__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-13-2011, 08:25 PM   #9
shushikiary
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: denver
Posts: 161
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts

Default

So I just brewed the above recipe and measured with a calibrated PH meter. I got a mash PH of 5.6 about 30 min in. I'll note that I did a 20 min dough in at 110 and so this was 10 min into a sach rest at 154 and I took the sample from the very top wort of the mash. I should note that I took the measurement at 39 deg C as well, so a little hot, so it might be lower than what I really measured a little bit I suppose. (1.25 q/lbs just like planned for mash thickness).

Not sure why it was so high, though I will note that sense I took this water measurement (measurement was taken in feb) the city has switched to its "summer" water supply which takes more water from the gravel pits around town than from Stanley lake, so it should have more minerals in it, I'll need to re-do a water test to make sure.

Perhaps I should also note that this was the first batch ever made with this system, and my first all grain batch... and I failed to stir the mash AT ALL during any point in time, still didnt get a stuck sparge or mash (it's a RIMS system) and hit 60% efficiency with a nice conditioned grain crush of .035.

__________________
shushikiary is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-14-2011, 03:33 AM   #10
ajdelange
Senior Member
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: McLean/Ogden, Virginia/Quebec
Posts: 5,934
Liked 587 Times on 485 Posts
Likes Given: 16

Default

pH was high because you didn't add any acid. Next time try about 2% sauermalz.

__________________
ajdelange is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Belgian Water Adjustment LooyvilleLarry Brew Science 6 01-18-2011 09:05 PM
My first attempt at water adjustment czucker Brew Science 3 05-04-2010 08:21 PM
Water adjustment - Austin, TX water chloramines pale ale anastasis Brew Science 4 04-02-2010 05:31 PM
Water adjustment crit please... Rottnme Brew Science 2 12-18-2009 02:23 AM
First try at water adjustment carp Brew Science 5 10-14-2009 12:32 AM