Ss Brewing Technologies Giveaway!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > 1st water adjustment - please check my numbers
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 09-28-2009, 03:14 AM   #11
JKoravos
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Posts: 964
Liked 18 Times on 14 Posts
Likes Given: 3

Default

My guess is that the extract mfgs. are very consistent about their ion content. If you're really ambitious, you can call the manufacturer and get the salt concentrations in the extract.

__________________
JKoravos is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2009, 03:56 AM   #12
JLem
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Attleboro, MA
Posts: 3,641
Liked 168 Times on 148 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKoravos View Post
First, you should put just your grain bill into promash/beertools/whatever and figure out what the expected SRM of that beer would be (i.e. if you didn't add the DME). That will tell you the SRM of the mash, and what RA to shoot for. Add salts to your mash to get the proper RA for that color, not the final beer color.
That makes sense, but if I take out the DME, the color estimate doesn't change that much in BeerSmith (15.1 -->14.6) . Also, BeerSmith doesn't give me the mash SRM, but the final beer SRM. The mash SRM would be much darker, right? With ~3.5 lbs of grain, I'm only using ~1 gallon of water in the mash and then effectively diluting it with the sparge/boil water to reach my final wort/beer SRM.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JKoravos View Post
With regards to your Cl:SO4 ratio, you can probably assume that the company that makes the DME uses a balanced ratio and you can shoot for balancing out the ratio for the water that you're adding. I'd probably add a mix of gypsum/epsom to the boil kettle for balancing the Cl:SO4 ratio since your water is really skewed towards chloride. It's up to you what you want the final ratio to be.
The amount of additions I'm proposing to add balances out the Cl:SO4 (1.25), so I think I'm good there, though with a Scottish ale, I could err on the malty side.

Last edited by JLem; 09-28-2009 at 04:01 AM.
JLem is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2009, 12:39 PM   #13
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 22,019
Liked 980 Times on 654 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

You're right about the mash SRM being a lot higher than the final beer but that's the point. The SRM cue for figuring out mash pH only cares about what's in the mash. It's the ratio of dark/roasted grains and their inherent acidity that we're trying to balance for. The way you'd figure the mash SRM would be to temporarily set the batch size to something like 2 gallons. That would get you closer.

When we're figuring RA for a full all grain batch, the mash SRM and final beer SRM will be very close since it's not topped off.

__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?
Bobby_M is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2009, 02:05 PM   #14
JLem
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Attleboro, MA
Posts: 3,641
Liked 168 Times on 148 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_M View Post

When we're figuring RA for a full all grain batch, the mash SRM and final beer SRM will be very close since it's not topped off.
But what about the sparge water? I would think the mash color in an all-grain batch would still be considerably darker than the final beer because of the amount of sparge. Or am I not understanding the AG process?
JLem is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2009, 04:28 PM   #15
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 22,019
Liked 980 Times on 654 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

That's a good point actually. I have to wonder if the texts that talk about appropriate RA to SRM relationships already take this into account. I'm stumped.

__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?
Bobby_M is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2009, 05:10 PM   #16
wildwest450
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 9,099
Liked 165 Times on 150 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_M View Post
That's a good point actually. I have to wonder if the texts that talk about appropriate RA to SRM relationships already take this into account. I'm stumped.
Are there hard and fast numbers for RA to SRM? Or general guidelines, I haven't found either.
__________________
wildwest450 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2009, 05:42 PM   #17
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 22,019
Liked 980 Times on 654 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

Palmer's section on it http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html seems like it's relatively predictive. That data carries over the TH's spreadsheet and any other utility that gives you appropriate SRM ranges based on calculated RA. The thing I can't get my head around is what's being discussed above. A beer that uses a typical mash/sparge routine will probably have a mash SRM of about twice the finished beer. A 35 SRM stout is probably 60 SRM in the mash. Certainly you can't broadly modify your water profile for 60 SRM or you'll way overshoot your pH.

__________________
BrewHardware.com
Sightglass, Refractometer, Ball Valve, Weldless bulkhead, Thermometer, Decals, Stainless Steel Fittings, Compression Fittings, Camlock Quick Disconnects, Scale, RIMS tube, Plate Chiller, Chugger Pump, Super Clear Silicone Tubing, and more!

New Stuff?
Bobby_M is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2009, 07:00 PM   #18
-TH-
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Zeeland, Michigan
Posts: 977
Liked 59 Times on 35 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_M View Post
Palmer's section on it http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-3.html seems like it's relatively predictive. That data carries over the TH's spreadsheet and any other utility that gives you appropriate SRM ranges based on calculated RA. The thing I can't get my head around is what's being discussed above. A beer that uses a typical mash/sparge routine will probably have a mash SRM of about twice the finished beer. A 35 SRM stout is probably 60 SRM in the mash. Certainly you can't broadly modify your water profile for 60 SRM or you'll way overshoot your pH.
Palmer (and TH) uses the finished beer SRM when suggesting RA range. I imagine its just to keep things simpler. I suppose the SRM for a mash could have been used since it might not always be proportional to the finished beer depending on how thick or thin the mash is, but - as palmer points out quite often - this isn't an exact science. Even two mashes with the same SRM's can have different affects on pH depending on which malts are used, etc.

This is from Palmer's instruction page on his spreadsheet:

...However, the relationship is a general one – different malts of the same Lovibond color value can have different amounts of acidity. You can use the calculated color of a beer recipe as a guide, but don’t rely on it as gospel to determine the appropriate amount of residual alkalinity; it is a general relationship, like cloud color and rain.

Instructions:
Step 1, Determining RA Target: Decide on the color of the beer you would like to brew. Look at the BJCP Style Guidelines at www.bjcp.org or at a brewery website that lists the color of the beer you would like to brew. Enter the color value in the Target Color box, and the spreadsheet will calculate a range of RA that should generate a mash pH that falls in the correct range. Remember, roastier grain bills will have a higher acidity than grain bills composed of caramel and toasted malts. Look at the range of RA present and choose a number that you feel is appropriate to the style of beer you want to brew. For example, if the target beer color is 10 SRM (20 EBC), the RA range is 0-60. Water with an RA close to zero will create a lower, more acidic mash pH, probably around 5.4 @ 20°C. Water with an RA closer to 60 will create a higher, less acidic mash pH, probably around 5.8 @ 20°C. The mash pH will drive the final beer pH. Lower beer pH translates to a sharper or brighter expression of beer flavors, while a higher beer pH softens and mellows out the flavors. A softer character is usually desired for roastier beers to prevent them from tasting acrid.
__________________
TH

Builds, etc: E-Brewery | Pneumatic Bottle Capper | Fermentation Chamber | Stirplate | Bottle Cabinet
Water Spreadsheet: www.EZWaterCalculator.com
-TH- is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-28-2009, 09:22 PM   #19
JLem
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Attleboro, MA
Posts: 3,641
Liked 168 Times on 148 Posts
Likes Given: 4

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildwest450 View Post
Are there hard and fast numbers for RA to SRM? Or general guidelines, I haven't found either.
Using Palmer's spreadsheet I created this graph (attached) showing the targeted RA range vs desired SRM. I know it's not supposed to be a hard and fast sort of rule, but I like making graphs
File Type: pdf SRM_RA_graph.pdf (11.4 KB, 30 views)
__________________
My Hombrewing Blog

My Beer Cellar

Last edited by JLem; 09-29-2009 at 01:22 AM.
JLem is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Check my numbers Csuho All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 2 10-21-2009 12:25 AM
Water Adjustment Sanity Check bolts Brew Science 18 10-04-2009 03:14 AM
Please check my numbers for a 9% brew senorfartman All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 13 02-01-2008 06:36 PM
1st AG- can someone check my procedure/numbers? megavites All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 7 03-27-2007 01:23 AM
Check my numbers please? BrewMeister Recipes/Ingredients 9 03-04-2006 02:15 PM