What is a Lambic supposed to taste like?

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bobsacks

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What exactly is a lambic supposed to taste like?

I picked up a Lindemans Peche Lambic and it was not at all what I was expecting. I was expecting a very sour and strong beer and what I got was very sweet and very fruity. More akin to a cider than beer.

Is this the way that all fruit lambics are or is this brand very different from what I can expect from other breweries?
 
taht lindemans fruit stuff is like alco pop to me. blech. beeradvocate.com has excellent references and reviews of many lambics
 
All the Lindeman's fruit lambics are sweetened to the point of tasting like sour candy. Surprisingly though, their Rene Cuvee Gueze is actually pretty darn good.
 
some breweries label their concotions "lambics" even though they aren't really. Just like bars call their sweet highballs "martini's" even though they aren't.
 
Well Lindeman's is a lambic. But as everybody else said they along with most other lambic makers sweeten their fruit lambics. Yes their Cuvee Rene is their only non-sweetened beer.
 
Lindeman's is a real lambic, it's just been sweetened to hell and back, and also pasturized so no live critters.

So like lindemans with a much drier and "fermenty" flavor.
 
You can also buy non-fruit lambics. However, my success rate on buying those state-side has been dismal. That is, 90% of the time they have gone to vinegar and the stores always say, "Oh, it's supposed to be sour like that!" Except, it's not sour, it's vinegar. BIG difference.

On the other hand. A good lambic has a bit of a tart sourness to it and depending on its year [yes, the year can affect it because the yeast does vary slightly] it will have some interesting flavor highlights from the yeast and bacteria. Often it comes out dry oak (from oak casks) like a good red wine, but with the flavor of tart cider and that pucker-you-up sour aftertaste. Sometimes they are a bit cheesey from old hops, since traditionally they use hops that are left out to sundry for up to two years - which reduces bitterness.

If you want to taste true, pure Lambic stateside the only thing I have really found is Grand Cru Bruocsella, but as I said, watch for it turning to vinegar. And do not panic if it has mold around the cork - if it hasn't been pasteurized it is almost guaranteed to.

On that note, if you get a nice non-pasteurized Lambic stateside, it might be a good to use as a starter in your own Lambic!
 
You can also buy non-fruit lambics. However, my success rate on buying those state-side has been dismal. That is, 90% of the time they have gone to vinegar and the stores always say, "Oh, it's supposed to be sour like that!" Except, it's not sour, it's vinegar. BIG difference.

On the other hand. A good lambic has a bit of a tart sourness to it and depending on its year [yes, the year can affect it because the yeast does vary slightly] it will have some interesting flavor highlights from the yeast and bacteria. Often it comes out dry oak (from oak casks) like a good red wine, but with the flavor of tart cider and that pucker-you-up sour aftertaste. Sometimes they are a bit cheesey from old hops, since traditionally they use hops that are left out to sundry for up to two years - which reduces bitterness.

If you want to taste true, pure Lambic stateside the only thing I have really found is Grand Cru Bruocsella, but as I said, watch for it turning to vinegar. And do not panic if it has mold around the cork - if it hasn't been pasteurized it is almost guaranteed to.

On that note, if you get a nice non-pasteurized Lambic stateside, it might be a good to use as a starter in your own Lambic!

I dont know where you have been buying your lambics, but I have NEVER encountered a lambic that had turned to vinegar. Maybe your threshold for acetic acid is lower than most because a little bit of vinegar is acceptable in a lambic, it's caused by acetobacter, a naturaly occuring microorganism in spontanious fermentation.

Oak tannins should not be present in lambics, the foudres (large oak casks) used by many lambic producers are often upwards of 100 years old, the casks are also generaly retirees from the red wine or port industry which sells off its barrels when they lose their "red wine" taste. Thus, they have long since been leeched of (nearly) all their tannins. That is not to say that there are no tannins whatsoever in lambic, but they do not make a significant contribution to the flavor profile, and any tannins in the beer probably do not come from the oak casks.

Cheeseyness from hops is considered a fault in Lambic, Cheeseyness comes from using hops that are too young (still aged, just not long enough) proper lambic hops will have very little cheese left to them, and what is left will be driven off by the long boil.

Hate to call you out, but I also hate to see people spreading false ideas.
 
I dont know where you have been buying your lambics, but I have NEVER encountered a lambic that had turned to vinegar. Maybe your threshold for acetic acid is lower than most because a little bit of vinegar is acceptable in a lambic, it's caused by acetobacter, a naturaly occuring microorganism in spontanious fermentation.

Oak tannins should not be present in lambics, the foudres (large oak casks) used by many lambic producers are often upwards of 100 years old, the casks are also generaly retirees from the red wine or port industry which sells off its barrels when they lose their "red wine" taste. Thus, they have long since been leeched of (nearly) all their tannins. That is not to say that there are no tannins whatsoever in lambic, but they do not make a significant contribution to the flavor profile, and any tannins in the beer probably do not come from the oak casks.

Cheeseyness from hops is considered a fault in Lambic, Cheeseyness comes from using hops that are too young (still aged, just not long enough) proper lambic hops will have very little cheese left to them, and what is left will be driven off by the long boil.

Hate to call you out, but I also hate to see people spreading false ideas.

Phew! I'm glad someone called me out. {Insert Melodramatic Rant}

Wait, you called me out? *shrug* You corrected my limited first-hand knowledge and added to it. I have had little opportunity to coordinate my limited beer pallet with other people and have had only one person to coordinate my observations of Lambic with. I appreciate your correction. Thank you.

On the other hand. You have created some questions for me.

First, I have only managed to find non-fruit Lambic at two places in my area. One is Whole Foods and the other is a local beer shop. At both places it was outrageously expensive for a small bottle - typically $18. Twice at Whole Foods and once at the beer shop I purchased and it was vinegar. I admit, I did not buy it again from Whole Foods and I did take it back both times (much to their grumbling about how it was supposed to be vinegary). My point wasn't that it was vinegary, but that it was vinegar. I have purchased non-fruit Lambic from the beer shop four times now. The first time was fine, the second time was vinegary, and the other two times were fine. So, this brings up one question and one short story -

Every time I have purchased non-fruit Lambic there has been mold [or something growing] on the cork. Initially I thought this was due to bad conditions while shipping. However, as it kept happening, I did some Lambic research and came to the conclusion that this was acceptable if it had not been pasteurized. Is this correct?

Oh, and I just went and looked at one of the old bottles I have lying around. It was a Geuze, does that make a difference? I thought that was just a Lambic blended with younger Lambics, is this correct? Or am I wrong again?

Now, the story. So, the second bottle I bought from the beer shop, was super-vinegary. The first was good, a slight touch of vinegar and sourness, but not super-vinegary. I took the second bottle back to the shop. They insisted that was how it was supposed to be. I said okay, I accept it is supposed to be vinegary to some degree, but what pH should it be? After some fiddling around, looking things up, and reading, we found it should be between 3.2 and 3.3. So, I suggested we test the pH of what was in the bottle and if it was below 3.2 by any significant amount they should take it back as it was definitely vinegar, otherwise I was wrong and had a new flavor to learn. So, we did. Results? Well, they returned it, I got a new bottle, tested it right there and it was 3.2 something [thank you digital pH meters] and the new bottle tasted good. But the returned bottle? Yah, it was 2.7ish. Not much lower by number, but enough that it was very definitely vinegar not Lambic. By the way, the shop did taste it after that and agreed the flavor was off - that is, it tasted more like vinegar than Lambic.

Something I learned later, is that the steadily falling pH of Lambic is what affects the various stages of fermentation. So the active bacterial or yeasty beasty is related to the pH at that time. I have no idea which one goes when, but that is what I recall reading. Please correct me if I am wrong on this.

The other thing is why would Lambic change to vinegar as it is shipped to the U.S.? I have no idea. Further fermentation? Infection by something else? Bad storage? Water loss? Old? Who knows, I am happy to hear other ideas on that one.

And, let's be honest, it really isn't that big of a step from Lambic to vinegar, but it is enough of one that they just don't have the same taste.

Now, I did not know that they used ancient oak barrels. That is awesome. And I see where I had a misconception on the origination of the tannins. However, my understanding is that Lambics typically do have more tannins than other beers. So maybe they are getting the tannins from the hops or something else. There are a lot of sources for tannins, so it could be coming from nearly anything I would think. For example, many people assume that the tannins in red wine have to come from Oak, but they can also come from the grape skins. Some ones that are not stored in Oak, and do not have added tannins, do get it from their grape skins. At least, that is what I have been told [again, no formal education on this] by a vintner.

So, I was wrong on the source of the tannins. Thank you for correcting that. But, am I wrong in my understanding that they are more tannic than other beers and that this does add to the dryness, more so than other beers? I was thinking more tannic dry than tannic flavor when I made my earlier comment ... If it is more tannic, then where are they coming from? The aged hops? I wonder how many hops they use in comparison to most recipes ...

Cheesey Hops. Cool. I admit, I never really tasted the cheeseyness, that is something I have heard other people complain about Lambics, saying "they're always so cheesey" and I made the miscalibrated assumption that was from the aged hops ... since old hops are a cause of cheeseyness. It is good to know that is incorrect. So, is that to say that once hops are aged beyond a certain point, they start to lose their cheeseyness?

And that sums up my questions.

Thanks!
 
My experience with lambics has not experienced a vinegar like beer yet. The beers are however quite tart and very complex, with tons of flavors.
On the other hand the Lindemann lambics, with the exception of Gran Cru have all been overly sweetened and tasted like bad koolaid to me. The fruit varieties I found undrinkable and the Faro and Gueze were not much better.

And not all fruit lambics are stabilized and sweetened like Lindemanns Cantillon makes a great fruit lambic in the traditional way by adding fruit to the fermentation and letting it age. This is a tart beverage with subtle fruit flavors. It is also very dry, not sickly sweet like the sweetened lambics.

Good Lambics and Flanders Reds are some of my favorite beers, however sweetened Lambics are my least favorite.

Craig
 
Never had a lambic that had gone vinegary, but I have had lambic "noobs" claim that they tasted vinegar just from the intense sour flavor.
 
Never had a lambic that had gone vinegary, but I have had lambic "noobs" claim that they tasted vinegar just from the intense sour flavor.

I can appreciate that observation. But, stand by the claim that the pH of Lambic should not be below 3.0 and surely should not be 2.7. That is creeping into the range of lemon juice (which I love) and moving away from the Lambic.

Little wikipedia moment: pH - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Beer - typically around 4.2-4.8 pH.
Lambic - typically 3.2-3.5 (other sources than wikipedia).
Vinegar - lower than 3.0.

So, it would seem reasonable that there would be a point where the level of acetic acid would move Lambic from being Lambic into being Lambic vinegar. On the other hand, it might be possible to argue that some styles of Lambic are not just supposed to be vinegary - but are actually supposed to be full-on vinegar.
 
The pH may or may not be too low for a lambic, but that shouldn't increase or decrease the vinegary character, only too much acetic acid will do that.

It is entirely possible that you are either super sensitive to acetic acid, or are perhaps tasting a very sour beer (which Cantillons and other traditional lambics/gueuzes certainly are) and it just makes you think of vinegar.

No Lambic should have a very noticeable acetic character, and I, with my palate, have never found one with very noticeable acetic character.
 
The pH may or may not be too low for a lambic, but that shouldn't increase or decrease the vinegary character, only too much acetic acid will do that.

It is entirely possible that you are either super sensitive to acetic acid, or are perhaps tasting a very sour beer (which Cantillons and other traditional lambics/gueuzes certainly are) and it just makes you think of vinegar.

No Lambic should have a very noticeable acetic character, and I, with my palate, have never found one with very noticeable acetic character.

Perhaps, although I have not found myself particularly sensitive to acetic acid in other things - and when others tasted or smelled it, they agreed it was like vinegar [including the brew shop].

Good point on the pH, however, too much acetic acid will lower it.

Who knows. Then again, I haven't encountered too much acetic acid flavor when abroad and drinking Lambic.
 
I would just love to commend maztec on not getting pissed off at me. I posted that in haste and in a bad mood, so sorry for the abrasiveness.

18$ for a 750 of lambic is about what I normaly pay, for a 375 that awfully steep. I have also encountered moldy looking stuff under caps, presumably from the unpasturized condition combined with prolonged "laying down" (literaly, lambic brewers tend to age their beer for a year or more on its side after they bottle it).

Gueuze is a blend of different aged lambics, generally 1 2 and 3 year old lambics that is allowed to referment in the bottle to give it carbonation.

Improper bottling and storage (exposure to oxygen) can cause acetobactar to multiply and metabolize alcohol into vinegar. If you tested the PH more that a day or so after opening that bad bottle, it may have started degrading into vinegar due to the exposure to air, so Im not sure how valid your PH test was, and to be frank, im not sure what a proper PH range for lambic is.

Tannins in lambic are another thing im unsure about, I dont think that they are that present. You may be confusing the lactic acid dryness with tannin dryness. If there are significant tannins they do not come from the barrels, at least not in traditional lambic breweries like boon and cantillon. Red wine does get tannins from grape skins, I forgot about that, thanks for the reminder. One possible source for the tannins in lambic (im speculating here) is from the grain husks. I would imagine that turbid mashing (a lambic specific mash procedure in which the liquid portion of the mash is lautered off and boiled before being added back to the grist) would extract tannins from the grain.

As for the quantity of hops, general a very large amount of hops are used, but to the best of my knowledge hops do not contribute tannins to beer.

Hops do lose their cheesieness after a time, and due to the very long boil generaly used at lambic breweries (3+ hours, some historical accounts cite boils upwards of ten hours, but those were probably more like simmers due to the inefficient wood fires used in yesteryear.) any aroma and flavor left is almost completely driven off, the bitterness of the hops was lost withthe aging time, so the only real contribution of the hops is the preservative properties.

I love talking about this stuff, sorry for being snappy earlier.
 
Orangevango: No problem with the snappiness, we all get that way sometimes and it is really difficult to figure out if someone is actually being snappy or just coming off that way. I have been a forum participant online far too long and a moderator in far too many places to allow myself to get riled up (albeit, it can happen).

Yes, $18 for 375s, I thought that was rather ridiculous myself when the 750s of fruit lambic are much cheaper.

Good to hear that the moldy stuff seems to be common. I read somewhere else (on this forum?) about someone using the last of the lambics he buys to develop a starter. Supposedly it worked well, but I would be interested in knowing if others have tried that.

I suspect the vinegar-ized lambics have been a result of poor storage and shipping. If you store a corked bottle upright too long the cork can dry out and slip or let air in - especially if it is smaller (375 bottle). That would explain the result. Good to hear that is not the way a lambic is supposed to be, but rather an unfortunate side-effect of being shipped around the world.

As for hops and tannins, Google to the rescue! I just took a bit of time to look this up. The best link was on Google Books the Dictionary of Beer and Brewing.

{Hop} Tannin is mainly present in the bracts and strigs of the hop cone and imparts an astringent taste to beer. Also called "hop tannin" to distinguish it from tannins originating from malted barley. The greater part of the tannin content of the wort is derived from malt husks, but malt tannins differ chemically from hop tannins.

The same definition mentions that hop tannins can be used for precipitating haze forming proteins in the beer during the hot and cold breaks. And, I ran into a patent for hop tannin extraction. Found an all experts thing talking about too much hop plant material resulting in added tannins. And found a cool article on beer tannins, which mentions that beer tannins are often referred to as polyphenols and clarifies that about 2/3 of beer tannins come from the malt and 1/3 from the hops. It also mentions using Polyclar to reduce the amount of tannins in a beer. Also a book called The Hop and Its Constituents has a chapter on The Part Played By Hop Tanning in Brewing, it debunks a lot of things about whether hop tannins need to be used in beer, but also mentions that hop tannins do exist (cool article).

Now, to combine our knowledge:
Hop bracts and strigs have tannins. [But how much? What I read seems to indicate quite a bit, but more in early harvest hops than in late hops - apparently red stems are an indicator.]
Astringents cause a dry, puckering feeling.
A very large amount of hops are used in lambic.
That large amount is boiled for over 3 hours - a lot of time to leach tannins out.

Plus, for the grains, boiling the water and pouring it back over the grains would seem to extract more tannins from the grain.

The only question left is how fast do tannins evaporate from hops that have been aged? And, at what point, if at all, do they break down during boiling?

Thus, it appears that unless the hop tannins dissipate during aging, there might be more in lambic as compared to other beers. Then add to that the mash tannins and we have a chance for a highly tannic brew. Which could explain at least part of the dryness [not necessarily all of it, but I believe tannins do have a unique astringency as compared to that of lactic acid (correct me if I am wrong, this is formulated from a different mouth feel when comparing kefir or vinegar to red wine in retrospect)].

However, it appears I was wrong on it being from the oak. That is a good tip to know. But, that leads me to another question. If I decide to brew a lambic, where can I get a nice old oak barrel that has been sufficiently leached of tannins? Can I just grab one of the many old wine barrels from the winery [I typically use them as planters], or should I look to another source? Which reminds me, one of the best wines I ever had was made in old whisky barrels imported from Scotland.

Thoughts?
 
An old wine barrel will work if you've got the capacity to fill it up to the top in a couple days. The choosing and maintainence of barrels in a lambic brewery is an art unto itself.

One thing about barrels and hombrewing and lambic to remember is that a lambic brewery has hundreds of barrels to blend together to make their finished lambic, so you dont just want one barrel, you want many. On the other hand, larger barrels are almost universaly thought to give lambic a better character. You are supposed to get better lambic out of a 55 gallon barrel than a 15 and better still out of a thousand gallon foudre. So ideally you would have a hundred large barrels to chose from in blending your lambic.

The home lambic brewer faces many more hurdles than the homebrewer of any other style I can think of.
 
I think that we need to find some serious home wine makers that are ready to retire 15 gallon or so barrels. If I could find some, I would buy 20 and start making lambic in them. Im going to make lambic soon, but it will at best be an aproximation. I will be using 5 gallon better bottles with a toasted and de-tanninized oak dowel as the lid, more or less. The inch thick dowels will have a flange at the top to keep them from entering the bottles, but they will be submerged in the beer to provide a nesting place for all the little beasties, and to provide some micro-oxidization.

I would be Curious to find out what lambics you were buying at 18$ a 375 that were vinegar?

Have you read "Wild brews"? It contains a wealth of information about lambic and flanders beer production.

BTW. You talk about "the vineyard" you dont make wine do you?




Oh, and when you were abroad drinking lambic, were you drinking bottled gueuze or lambic from casks, or what? If you were drinking lambic from a cask, it may have been very young, which I belive would account for its less agressive acid character. Young lambic is something Ive never had though.
 
Abroad I drank more than my liver cares to remember, but believe the lambic was mostly gueuze. I think I may have had casked once, but am unsure about my recollection of that instance.

I have not had the opportunity to read Wild Brews. It is on my list of books to get. Top of my list at the moment is to finish How to Brew, then the Bock book I have is to be read, then I believe I will be ready for Wild Brews.

Next time I make it to Whole Foods I will check to see which lambic it is they have. Whatever it is, both times I bought it it was vinegar. When I mentioned this thread to my wife she reminded me that at least the first time I complained about the cork pulling out far too easily. So, that seems entirely likely to be a cause. Then again, there is a reason people around here call Whole Foods "Whole Paycheck".

I do not personally make wine. However, my family has a vineyard and winery.

As for barrels, that is a good idea. It would be kind of fun if enough people in the same region decided to make lambics and then mix them together for gueuze's.
 
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