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-   -   What the hell is this lacto doing to my wort? (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/what-hell-lacto-doing-my-wort-365574/)

highgravitybacon 11-05-2012 01:24 AM

So I made a 50/50 pilsen / white wheat. IBU of about 5. SG 1.030. The fermenter could pass for a urinal in color.

Thinking I would get a few sour bonus points, I pitched half (1L) of a 2L starter of Wyeast 5335. This, by estimation, should have yielded 10 mil cells / ml. I pitched this into 90F wort. 12 hours later this thing is going ape. Furious bubbling, krausen, smells sour, tart, citrusy. Plan was to wait 72 hours, taste, and then pitch 1007.

I checked it just now, about 30 hours post innoculation. This fricking lacto has dropped the wort from 1.030 to 1.010. It's nuts. I thought the Wyeast lacto was supposed to be kind of sissy, doesn't mess with the sugars too much, and leaves plenty for the yeast to ferment. That's not at all what I'm looking at. I'm looking at a big ass tub of yogurt beer.

Question 1 Of the products produced by the bacteria messing with the wort, what value is the SG? Is the SG value still valid in terms of attenuation and alcohol content? Or are so many off products produces that I can no longer rely on the starting-final to calculate alcohol?

Question 2: Is this experience typical of this strain and these conditions?

anicola 11-05-2012 06:13 AM

Subscribed. Have a batch of same wort fermenting with Bo Pils yeast after 5 days of White Labs Lacto Delbruekii. Wort was at 1.012 post Lacto. I racked it to kettle added DME, 18 IBU Sterling hops and boiled for 15 min. Pitched Bo Pils into the resultant 1.026 wort 4 days ago. Lacto ferment was vigorous by contrast lager ferment has been very retarded probably due to Low gravity and acidic conditions.

AmandaK 11-05-2012 02:41 PM

I do wish I could help, but I haven't gotten to this style yet. :(

Subscribed for sure. I'm sure someone around here has experiences to share.

rexbanner 11-05-2012 02:47 PM

I can help. 5335 does produce alcohol. Finding the true SG is very difficult as lactic acid messes with the reading.

I'm not sure about the strain you used, but when I use lacto cultured from grain at 90 degrees, the fermentation is more vigorous than anything I've ever seen sacc do.

When I use lacto, I split the wort 50/50 and use lacto on half and sacc or brett on the other. Then I blend them together. I think that is the best way to keep one organism from running away with your beer.

Double_D 11-05-2012 03:00 PM

The easiest way I've found to do a berliner weisse is mash 30% separately, then inoculate that mash with a small amount of grain to culture lacto. From there keep it about 95-100F. I start mine on the evening of wednesday for a saturday brew day. Then I mash the remaining 70% and when it's time to sparge I dump my sour mash in, sparge and finish with a 15 min boil.

FWIW, some of the historical accounts of this style I could find talked about this being a no boil, mash hopped thing. The used a single decoction and you'd get some isomerization there and temp from the mash would kill the vast majority of the bacteria while not completely inhibiting lacto, where it would remain in the wort and gradually sour in the fermenter and bottle.

I had 1809 and it's what inspired me to try this style and do some digging.

highgravitybacon 11-05-2012 03:16 PM

Well I got pissed that the bacteria were running amok so I pitched an army of 1007 to get in there and kick some ass. I didn't cool the wort enough when I pitched the 1007 so the bacteria worked in cahoots with the 1007 to cause some serious mayhem. It was a gusher. The fermenter stayed a good 20F higher than ambient for a long time. I set the thing outside in the cold and rain for a few hours. Now I think they're all hung over and bruised because there's no more action in the fermenter. 48 hours and it looks about done.

I put in an email to Wyeast to get some more information about this. I'm a little put off at the wildly inaccurate information on the interwebs about 5335. I know, how could random information on the internet be so wrong? But NOTHING suggest it was capable of fermenting wort like this. But everyone on this thread is saying otherwise. I think its time the internet get its crap together and start reading this thread instead of saying that 5335 is a nancy boy strain. It would be super easy to go with a pure lacto fermentation on this.

rexbanner 11-05-2012 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highgravitybacon (Post 4560189)
I think its time the internet get its crap together and start reading this thread instead of saying that 5335 is a nancy boy strain. It would be super easy to go with a pure lacto fermentation on this.

White Labs' lacto strain is a nancy boy strain, at least at 90 degrees. Wyeast isn't. But I wouldn't even bother spending the money on lacto, it's all over the grain you have. Just throw a handful of uncrushed grain in. If you're worried about brett or pedio, you can pasteurize when it's done.

highgravitybacon 11-08-2012 06:27 AM

I emailed the people at Wyeast. They said that the fermentation and attenuation described was unlikely to be caused by the lacto itself, and most likely due to contamination with unwanted yeast(s). I asked if temperature could be the cause. They said no, the fermentations the lab has done were performed at 90F and no attenuation like this occurred. The lacto is slower to ferment which leaves ample time and food for foreign yeasts to come in and mayhem.

So there you have it. The official source says it's a sanitation issue. Apparently with sacchromyces, the rampant growth drives out infection but the lacto is a bit weak.

I don't know. I guess we'll see.

rexbanner 11-09-2012 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highgravitybacon (Post 4568930)
I emailed the people at Wyeast. They said that the fermentation and attenuation described was unlikely to be caused by the lacto itself, and most likely due to contamination with unwanted yeast(s). I asked if temperature could be the cause. They said no, the fermentations the lab has done were performed at 90F and no attenuation like this occurred. The lacto is slower to ferment which leaves ample time and food for foreign yeasts to come in and mayhem.

So there you have it. The official source says it's a sanitation issue. Apparently with sacchromyces, the rampant growth drives out infection but the lacto is a bit weak.

I don't know. I guess we'll see.

I wouldn't be so sure. I've talked to the folks at wyeast about their lacto and gotten conflicting info. Taste it.

highgravitybacon 11-10-2012 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rexbanner (Post 4574809)
I wouldn't be so sure. I've talked to the folks at wyeast about their lacto and gotten conflicting info. Taste it.

I agree totally. It smells sour and tastes lightly tart. This is only after 4 days though. It still has a white gooey krausen on it that does not look anything like the 1007 krausen typically does.


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