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Old 03-04-2009, 10:18 PM   #11
mensplace
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peck...
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one wrong micro-organism, "yeast, bacteria, mold, fungus, protozoa, amoeba, archaea or alien spores from the 13th dimension" can spoil a batch of brew...and totally ruin a day in a host of other ways.
relax...you will live longer

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Old 03-04-2009, 10:42 PM   #12
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peck...
others do care
one wrong micro-organism, "yeast, bacteria, mold, fungus, protozoa, amoeba, archaea or alien spores from the 13th dimension" can spoil a batch of brew...and totally ruin a day in a host of other ways.
relax...you will live longer
If it the beer gets ruined, then I throw it out. I've done it before, sucks but if we never fail what have we learned?

Relax? Asdf...NEVER!

Different approach to beer making. I enjoy the making of new things and experiences more than purely the craft aspect.
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:53 AM   #13
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I just realize something about mold:

Most molds are aerobic, they require oxygen. Koji mold used in making Sake, Miso, etc... is part of the Aspergillus genus of molds, which are highly aerobic.

Beer, on the other hand (once fermentation has begun), is a largely anaerobic environment.

If you wanted to use Koji in your beer, I'd suggest using it in your mash. I have read that it is most active around 140 degrees F, but will die off much higher than that.

Keep in mind, mold is a subset of the fungus kingdom. The yeasts which we use to ferment and mature our beer (including both Sach. and Brett.) are of the fungi kingdom. Not all fungus is aerobic, but it seems that molds are generally aerobic, which is probably one of the reasons they are never traditionally use to ferment beers.

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Old 03-05-2009, 04:14 AM   #14
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And...many anaerobic molds & other organisms will kill

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Old 03-05-2009, 04:50 AM   #15
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And...many anaerobic molds & other organisms will kill
???

Perhaps you are thinking of botulism, which cannot live in beer because the pH is too low for it.

From what I have read, nothing that can sicken you (save alcohol) can survive in beer.
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:23 PM   #16
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There isn't any known pathogen that can survive in beer. So there's no botulism concern or anything else, for that matter. The worst that'll happen trying to use mold to ferment with is it ruins the batch.

The reason people like to replicate commercial brews is because they know what they like, and want to make that. Why spend hours and hours making a batch, spending $30 to $60 on ingredients only to throw it out because it tastes like ass? Brewers by nature are a skinthrifty bunch (just LOOK at the DIY forum!) and we hate wasting money when we don't need to. I admire your spirit, peck, and keep up the good work! Hell, I have a few batches that are 'ruined' and sour but I'm keeping them around because they keep getting better with age. Soon they'll be drinkable!

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Old 03-05-2009, 06:29 PM   #17
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Quote:
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I just realize something about mold:

Most molds are aerobic, they require oxygen. Koji mold used in making Sake, Miso, etc... is part of the Aspergillus genus of molds, which are highly aerobic.

Beer, on the other hand (once fermentation has begun), is a largely anaerobic environment.

If you wanted to use Koji in your beer, I'd suggest using it in your mash. I have read that it is most active around 140 degrees F, but will die off much higher than that.

Keep in mind, mold is a subset of the fungus kingdom. The yeasts which we use to ferment and mature our beer (including both Sach. and Brett.) are of the fungi kingdom. Not all fungus is aerobic, but it seems that molds are generally aerobic, which is probably one of the reasons they are never traditionally use to ferment beers.
Thanks for the info. I thought using the koji in the mash but I'm not going to for several reasons. First, I would lose any of the volatile flavors from the koji in the boil. Second, I would have to have a fairly good infection going to get a good effect from the koji. It might be interesting though to infect your mash at room temperature or close to it and let it sit around for a couple of days (3,5,7?) and then precede with the normal mashing process. Probably get very good conversion from it but, again, would lose any of the volatiles in the boil.

So this is my plan right now - first, I will make a starter for the koji by cooking up a couple cups of white rice and letting ferment for a couple days. Then I will cook up 2-4 pounds of either rice, wheat or oats. Right now I am leaning towards wheat but I am little concerned about all the extra crap it might leave behind. Not too concerned though. Next, I am going put the cooked grain into a bucket with the koji starter and some brett. and let the whole thing ferment for a while with a dry airlock on so that oxygen can still get in. After it ferments for three to seven days (I'll play this by ear or find some more Sake info) I'll make up a normal batch of beer, probably a mildish brown, and pitch it over the infected grain cake and ferment. Ta da!

One thing I am interested/concerned about with this whole process is the effect of having the live koji will have on the body of the beer. Since I will not be heating the koji cake, any of enzymes which the koji uses to break down the starches will still be present during the primary fermentation, which might break down the dextrins and such in the wort, leaving me with a very thin beer. Anyway, we shall see and to counteract this somewhat I'll mash the beer fairly hot (~158).

I will probably start this whole process the beginning of next week but I am going back to Seattle this weekend and the heather is blooming. I love me some heather beer!
Fresh heather >>>> dried heather, BTW.

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And...many anaerobic molds & other organisms will kill
Yowser, I am going to be using commercially purchased koji which has been used for centuries to make Sake, soy sauce, miso, etc. I am not going to be scraping the black mold out of my shower and infecting my beer with it. Well, not yet, at least. Well not the black mold, there is this pink stuff...
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Old 03-05-2009, 07:18 PM   #18
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Found this in The Brewers Handbook
"Beer is a poor and rather hostile environment for most microorganisms. Its ethanol concentration and low pH is lower than most bacteria can tolerate for growth. Furthermore, the high carbon dioxide concentration and extremely low oxygen content makes beer a near to anaerobic medium. Beer also contains bitter hop compounds, which are toxic. Only a few bacteria are able to grow under such inhospitable conditions and are able to spoil beer. These bacteria include both Gram-positive and Gram-negative species as listed in Table 19.2.

Gram Positive Bacteria
Gram-positive bacteria are generally regarded as the most threatening contaminants in the brewery because of their rapid growth rate and tolerance to high temperatures and low pH conditions. Most hazardous microorganisms are those belonging to the genera Lactobacillus and Pediococcus and are often referred to as lactic acid bacteria because of their propensity to produce lactic acid from simple sugars.

Gram Negative Bacteria
Important Gram-negative contaminants in the context of beer brewing are acetic acid bacteria, Zymomonas spp., Pectinatus spp., and various Enterobacteriaceae. Several members of this group not only distort the fermentation process or produce undesired by-products but also have been reported to survive the fermentation process and to transfer into the finished product.

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Old 03-12-2009, 04:57 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensplace View Post
peck...
others do care
one wrong micro-organism, "yeast, bacteria, mold, fungus, protozoa, amoeba, archaea or alien spores from the 13th dimension" can spoil a batch of brew...and totally ruin a day in a host of other ways.
relax...you will live longer
oh come on. Cut it out with the fear-mongering. I've made countless weird fermented products that had god knows what in them. It's next to impossible to get sick off of a wild fermentation. The biggest risk you're taking is that you might not like the flavors you get. Read "wild fermentation" by Sandor Katz.
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Old 03-12-2009, 06:35 AM   #20
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Lambic w/ cheese mold added (along with the other typical bugs) in secondary could be good - I've tasted lambics before with cheesy flavors.

Edit: Anyone willing to try putting this in their beer? http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/p/...te-1-pack.html

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