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Old 10-19-2009, 10:30 PM   #21
B-Dub
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It's my understanding that the lacto won't do any more work at this time-can't handle the alcohol. Although with some time the sourness may come out some more.

I hear what you are saying and from what I have read that would be true. However, there are a few beers out there that are only soured with lacto and are in the 7% to 9% range.

http://www.raclodge.com/on_tap.php

Cascade Brewing has a lacto bottled conditioned beer that is 8.41%, the Cuvee du Jongleur.

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Cuvee du Jongleur
A careful blending of select barrels of Flanders Reds and soured Belgian Triples aged in oak for up to 18 months. Then blended with fresh 25° Plato Blond Quadruppel. Hand-bottled, corked and then aged allowing lactic fermentation. 8.41% ABV
This is clearly a deviation from the common belief that laco dies out at higher alcohols.
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Old 10-20-2009, 04:25 AM   #22
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This is clearly a deviation from the common belief that laco dies out at higher alcohols.
I suggest checking out the work that Raj Apte did (he got cited in Wild Brews). He explains with good detail the basic limitations that alcohol levels present for sour ale production. He also introduces the idea that in certain conditions, extremes are possible.

In the case of this Cuvee du Jongleur, it appears that the "careful blending" was to use highly soured, lower alcohol beers (Flemish reds) along with less sour, high alcohol beers (soured tripel) and some fresh, extremely high alcohol beers (quad) to get their finished product. I would hesitate to propose that this is a deviation from the historically-observed limitations of lactic-acid producing bacteria. It sounds like a delicious blend to achieve the best of all worlds (much like the process of blending lambics).

Also, there have been several posts that combined the terms "lacto" with "hours". Remember that lactic-acid producing microbes need ample food supplies and months to years in order to convert carbohydrates to lactic acid. They are unable to do anything in 24 hours, nor can they contribute much if any fermentation when the gravity is 1.002.

See my original post, I really think a sour saison is a tough nut to crack because Saison yeasts (especially WY3711) don't seem to make good bedfellows with lacto, pedio, or brett. I think it's achievable, but challenging. This is particularly true for the subset of saisons (super saisons) that have been most-discussed in this thread.

Orangevango and Tonedef131 made the most practical suggestions for non-traditional techniques.
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Old 10-20-2009, 05:55 AM   #23
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I hear what you are saying, really I do.

There just seems to be some exceptions to the common brewing belief that lacto is only for mid ABV beers. I tasted many unblended sour beers at the Cascade Brewing tasting room that were 8%-9% sours and they only use lacto.

The 24 hours alone with the lacto was just a attempt to make a "Berliner Saison."


I do hear what you are saying about the alcohol tolerance of lacto. Some guys say over 5 IBUs you can really slow or stop lacto. Although many brewers are using 15-20 IBUs and having great success souring with the Big "L."

True the 3711 takes all the bug food away. I to wonder if you mash at 160F, all malt and used 3711 it would leave enough sugar for bugs. When the 15 gallons of 3711 Saison is gone I might try it.

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Old 09-28-2013, 07:50 AM   #24
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True the 3711 takes all the bug food away. I to wonder if you mash at 160F, all malt and used 3711 it would leave enough sugar for bugs. When the 15 gallons of 3711 Saison is gone I might try it.
3711 is a monster. I wouldn't count on it.
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Old 09-29-2013, 04:54 PM   #25
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i had really good luck (probably the best beer i've ever made) with this recipe:

Starchild Surette

5.75 gal

6 lbs 8 oz Pilsner malt
1 lbs 4 oz White wheat malt
8 oz flaked wheat
8 oz Crystal 80
4 oz rice hulls
.53 oz Magnum (12.2%)—60 min
Wyeast 3711 French Saison plus Dregs:
allagash interlude, bruery oude tart, fantome hiver, jolly pumpkin io9, jolly pumpkin oro de calabaza

i pitched the yeast and dregs at the same time. brewed in late december, bottled in may. fantastically complex, sour but not too much.

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Old 10-05-2013, 05:16 AM   #26
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True the 3711 takes all the bug food away. I to wonder if you mash at 160F, all malt and used 3711 it would leave enough sugar for bugs. When the 15 gallons of 3711 Saison is gone I might try it.
i'm not experienced with lacto and pedio, but even 3711 leaves plenty for brett to eat. those funky & fruity brett flavors are the result of brett eating sacc by-products. it has nothing to do with how much sugar is or isn't left over. brett can survive off a lot more things than sacc. in fact, the lack of sugar means that brett gets to work on making its signature flavors faster than if there was sugar available.

folks need to stop worrying about "will the brett have enough left to eat"... it will. brett can eat cellulose from wood, for crissake.
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:18 PM   #27
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I know it's an old thread, but no one mentioned the use of acidulated malt at higher percentages than normal. I have a sour saison on tap right now that used acidulated malt at 11% of the grain bill and then fermented it with a mix of 3711, Brett l., and Brett claussennii. Came out with just the right amount of tartness. Not in your face, but definitely more than slightly noticeable. All in all a fantastic beer.

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