Reusing Roeselare Yeast Cake

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bribo179

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Right now I am fermenting a Dunkelweizen beer with Roeselare. I have heard this mix does some interesting things as it goes through generational changes. I plan on racking this beer to a better bottle in a month or two to age. I am then going to reuse the yeast cake for another beer.

I had plans of just dumping the next beer into the fermenter, stirring up the cake, aerating, then letting it go to town. Is there any reason I should was the yeast? The whole point of this is to see what the new imbalance and pitch rates will do to the beer.

Anyone have any ideas about this?
 
You've just tapped into a can of worms :D

Edit:
I say give the yeast cake a shot. No need to aerate if you pitch on the cake.
 
I wouldn't wash the yeast. You might wash some of the bugs away.

Traditional washing techniques tries to isolate the yeast. I don't know that the lacto, brett, and pedio (any sherry yeast in this one?) will all be in the same band as the yeast.

I'd try to get the wort as clean as possible going onto the mix to try and keep the resulting cake as clean as possible.
 
It will be fine just using the cake. I put my cake into a gallon jug with apple juice between brews then bottle the juice and dump it into the fermenter with some new yeast when I am ready to use it again.. The juice keeps my bugs alive and makes a great wild brew.
 
It will be fine just using the cake. I put my cake into a gallon jug with apple juice between brews then bottle the juice and dump it into the fermenter with some new yeast when I am ready to use it again.. The juice keeps my bugs alive and makes a great wild brew.

Why apple juice? The sacc will eat all the sugars, leaving very little for the Brett, Lacto. and Pedio.
 
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f72/landers-fred-241728/

Sacc knows his ****, if he does it I say go for it. I've got my first beer with roselare fermenting in primary right now. Not to threadjack, but can someone answer this question? Will pitching an entire pack of roselare into three gallons of wort make it more sour? I know that one pack into 5 gallons won't make a very sour beer (at least within normal sour timeframes). I also pitched some dregs from Spontanale and Monk's Cafe.
 
I doubt there was much if any sacc left in the cake after how long I age my sours. Apple juice is much easier than brewing a one gallon batch. I just pour it in and forget about it.
 
Not to threadjack, but can someone answer this question? Will pitching an entire pack of roselare into three gallons of wort make it more sour? I know that one pack into 5 gallons won't make a very sour beer (at least within normal sour timeframes). I also pitched some dregs from Spontanale and Monk's Cafe.

1 pack in to 3 gallons shouldn't really make a difference. The blend of sacch, brett and bugs is balanced. The sacch will reproduce and do it's job first, then the bugs will eat up what's left over. Assuming that it's a relatively fresh pack of yeast.

If anything, the dregs from the other beers will throw off the sacch/brett/bugs balance (in a good way) and will help to get you a more sour beer.
 
Yea more wont accomplish anything. If you want pretty sour, make a small starter to give the bacteria a head start
 
For what its worth, a friend and I have done 10 generations of Roselare. It is great for generations 1-3, 4-6 were adequate, and 6+ you get some very very strong acidic flavors that take over the entire beer. 2 was definitely the best in my opinion. Despite varying grain bills, most the beers had a similar "generation 4-10" taste to them that beat the crap out of everything else.
 
For what its worth, a friend and I have done 10 generations of Roselare. It is great for generations 1-3, 4-6 were adequate, and 6+ you get some very very strong acidic flavors that take over the entire beer. 2 was definitely the best in my opinion. Despite varying grain bills, most the beers had a similar "generation 4-10" taste to them that beat the crap out of everything else.

Wow, 10 generations! That's impressive. Did you primary with anything, or just use the cake?
 
Straight up cake. Every time.
Just brewed a 60 gallon batch of Flemish in September, now sitting in a wine barrel. The cake at the bottom of that one is HUGE. I'll prob send it through 2 more generations if I get thirsty. I really like the flavors it gives off after a year or so.
 
Straight up cake. Every time.
Just brewed a 60 gallon batch of Flemish in September, now sitting in a wine barrel. The cake at the bottom of that one is HUGE. I'll prob send it through 2 more generations if I get thirsty. I really like the flavors it gives off after a year or so.

Very interesting. I have a very similar project going as well. I started mine about the same time too. I'm using a mishmash of cultures. I used US-05 for primary and then dumped the cake from a 5 gallon Flanders Red in the barrel, along with 4 Roeselare smack packs, 2 Lambic smack packs, 2 vials of WLP Flemish and dregs from a bunch of other commercial sours. It's coming along nicely!
 
Any thoughts on racking off the cake after a month or so, or leaving the beer on for the duration?
 
I might just pitch this cake into 15 gallons of beer and age it in a Sanke and see what happens. I have heard from quite a few places that generation 2 of this yeast is pretty nice.
 
Yea more wont accomplish anything. If you want pretty sour, make a small starter to give the bacteria a head start

Wont this have the opposite effect. Making a starter will wake the sacc up and it will screw up the balance since the sacc works faster than anything else. You are actually giving the sacc a head start.

I think the packs are made to have a small amount of sacc so that there is a little time for the Lacto to do some work before the sacc starts making alcohol. If you use a starter, you will considerably increase the sacc, and when you pitch it into the main wort, the sacc will be off before the Lacto has a chance to do anything.
 
Calder said:
Wont this have the opposite effect. Making a starter will wake the sacc up and it will screw up the balance since the sacc works faster than anything else. You are actually giving the sacc a head start.

I think the packs are made to have a small amount of sacc so that there is a little time for the Lacto to do some work before the sacc starts making alcohol. If you use a starter, you will considerably increase the sacc, and when you pitch it into the main wort, the sacc will be off before the Lacto has a chance to do anything.

NO! Bacteria goes through mitosis much faster then sacch. A starter will let sour bacteria get a head start. I did some lab work on lacto bacteria
 
NO! Bacteria goes through mitosis much faster then sacch. A starter will let sour bacteria get a head start. I did some lab work on lacto bacteria

That may be correct, but it is the lag phase of the bacteria that allows the yeast to get going first. It can take up to several days before the bacteria get going. Agreed, once it has started it can double its population in roughly an hour.

Even if it gets established in a starter, the amount of reproduction is limited by the size of the starter, and the sacc population will catch up proportionately.
 
Calder said:
That may be correct, but it is the lag phase of the bacteria that allows the yeast to get going first. It can take up to several days before the bacteria get going. Agreed, once it has started it can double its population in roughly an hour.

Even if it gets established in a starter, the amount of reproduction is limited by the size of the starter, and the sacc population will catch up proportionately.

I've seen a much shorter lag time on lactic then sacc. No idea on Pedio or Other bacteria
 
I'm new to brewing with Roeselare. Last night I kegged up my first batch that I let age for 6 months. While the beers still young the taste was smooth with a mild souring. I'm not a fan of wicked sour ales. Anyways, I washed this yeast to re-use when I transfered to the secondary and bottled it in mason jars. Unfortunately I havent got around to using this yeast and I'm wondering if it's still good to use for another batch? Any thoughts? Think it's usable? Did washing ruin it? Too old to use now? Thanks
 
I've re-used yeast cakes from year old brews before. I don't see why a six month old washed yeast wouldn't work, there will still be all the bacteria in it.
 
I washed this yeast to re-use when I transfered to the secondary and bottled it in mason jars. Unfortunately I havent got around to using this yeast and I'm wondering if it's still good to use for another batch? Any thoughts? Think it's usable? Did washing ruin it?

They way we think of washing is designed to keep the yeast and get rid of everything else. We add lots of water, and let the heavier solids drop, then capture the liquid with the lighter solids in suspension. Then let those solids drop and pour off the liquid.

What I don't know, is where the Lacto, pedio and Sherry and Brett yeasts end up. I'm pretty certain you will have captured the sherry and brett yeasts, but don't know about the pedio or Lacto.
 
This is what I posted earlier:
For what its worth, a friend and I have done 10 generations of Roselare. It is great for generations 1-3, 4-6 were adequate, and 6+ you get some very very strong acidic flavors that take over the entire beer. 2-3 was definitely the best in my opinion. Despite varying grain bills, most the beers had a similar "generation 4-10" taste to them that beat the crap out of the other flavors in the beer.
 
I'd recommend reading Wild Brews.

Sparrow specifically describes two things NOT to do when brewing sour beers. The first is NOT to use a starter because it throws the "balance" of yeast and bacteria out of whack. Second, he notes that you should not "reuse" a yeast cake for similar reasons. That is why chugachbrewing noticed a change in flavors, specifically lactic acid production with successive generations.

Seriously though, read the book. It's the best book for sour brewing and a must read for novices.
 
I think you missed the whole reason...I want the beer to be different than if I just pitched a pack...I want to see how it evolves.
 
I'd recommend reading Wild Brews.

Sparrow specifically describes two things NOT to do when brewing sour beers. The first is NOT to use a starter because it throws the "balance" of yeast and bacteria out of whack. Second, he notes that you should not "reuse" a yeast cake for similar reasons. That is why chugachbrewing noticed a change in flavors, specifically lactic acid production with successive generations.

Seriously though, read the book. It's the best book for sour brewing and a must read for novices.

I saw a post on ECY's facebook where Al recommends doing an aerated starter with half the blend if it's over a month old or the beer is over 1.060 and then pitching the starter with the other half of the blend into un-aerated wort.

Not disagreeing about Wild Brews being a must own book though.
 
TNGabe said:
I saw a post on ECY's facebook where Al recommends doing an aerated starter with half the blend if it's over a month old or the beer is over 1.060 and then pitching the starter with the other half of the blend into un-aerated wort.

Not disagreeing about Wild Brews being a must own book though.

You mind linking me ECYs Facebook page Gabe? (Should be getting the yeast soon, sorry for delay again) Lots of people say its disappeared/can't find it

Here's my thoughts from a microbiologists point of view. Yes, of course making a starter is going to affect the proportions of the blend, different micro organisms go through differing rates of asexual reproduction. But you can adjust your results by making different sizes of starters, stepping it up x times, etc. you can get many different products out of a single blend. For newbies, no starter is smart, once you get used to 3763's properties, you can adjust it. I'm starting a beer on Roselare that I plan on reusing a few times to increase sourness in generations. On the other hand, I'm about to bottle a beer on a 3278 cake, and there's no way I'm using that blend again. Not a fan one bit
 
Hi all,

Gearing up to do another flanders red - did one last year, racked from primary into glass carboy where it's sat for almost a year now.

I kept what was left over from the 5gal on a 1gal demijohn and it's got a BEAUT of a pellicle. The yeast I harvested from primary has sat in a mason jar in the fridge since the brew last nov/dec.

Not sure of the yeast's viability, nor of it's state - when I placed it in the mason jar it had what looked like a fat krausen, which has over that time subsided and left me with half a jar of beer+yeast layer. Not sure what state it'll be in now - it looks a little less that a smooth peanut butter layer at the bottom, would this be the case with a yeast+bugs concoction? I have no previous in such matters.

I'm inclined to pitch new Roeselare blend and then rack the leftover 1/2 gal onto the new beer.

But I'd be interested to know everyone's thoughts and advice - what would you guys be tempted to do, or ideally wanna do?

Thanks!
 
Gearing up to do another flanders red - did one last year, racked from primary into glass carboy where it's sat for almost a year now.

I kept what was left over from the 5gal on a 1gal demijohn and it's got a BEAUT of a pellicle. The yeast I harvested from primary has sat in a mason jar in the fridge since the brew last nov/dec.

Not sure of the yeast's viability, nor of it's state - when I placed it in the mason jar it had what looked like a fat krausen, which has over that time subsided and left me with half a jar of beer+yeast layer. Not sure what state it'll be in now - it looks a little less that a smooth peanut butter layer at the bottom, would this be the case with a yeast+bugs concoction? I have no previous in such matters.

I'm inclined to pitch new Roeselare blend and then rack the leftover 1/2 gal onto the new beer.

But I'd be interested to know everyone's thoughts and advice - what would you guys be tempted to do, or ideally wanna do?

I think I would make the wort, swirl up the contents of the 1 gallon demijohn, and use that to start the beer. There are lots of bugs in there that should start to form their colonys quickly. However, there might not be much sacc left; you should be ready to pitch some fresh sacc (preferably a Belgian yeast) after about 4 days if you see no activity.

Unless I'm trying a new strain, I always start my sours off with a couple of liters of saved beer, and time the beer to coincide with a time when I have some Belgian yeast going; racking or bottling a Belgian, so I can scoop a pint of slurry, or I have a starter I can split.

Good luck.
 
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