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Old 04-19-2013, 05:34 PM   #11
kwadric
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I think 5-7 days might be too long. I did three with my Berliner and seven for my lacto Brett beer. I thought the Berliner turned out well, but the lacto Brett beer screams lactic acid with little other flavor.

I'd take a sample at three days and see what it tastes like. You can always leave it going if you aren't happy. The only risk is that the flavor could be mild and but the pH or lactic acid levels are enough to change the performance of the other bugs and yeast you pitch. I don't even have a guess on that.

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Old 04-19-2013, 07:29 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwadric View Post
I think 5-7 days might be too long. I did three with my Berliner and seven for my lacto Brett beer. I thought the Berliner turned out well, but the lacto Brett beer screams lactic acid with little other flavor.

I'd take a sample at three days and see what it tastes like. You can always leave it going if you aren't happy. The only risk is that the flavor could be mild and but the pH or lactic acid levels are enough to change the performance of the other bugs and yeast you pitch. I don't even have a guess on that.
Without throwing their names out there and putting them on the spot.... the people I've been talking to recommend 5-7 days on Lacto B. @90F followed by 1007 in order to get the MOST acidic results. I've got to take their experience to heart. Worst case scenario is that its VERY SOUR... darn. heh This is for a Berliner... I've just extrapolated the same process and want to try applying it to a brown sour.
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:43 PM   #13
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Depending on your success I have plans to do a similar thing. I have a proven brown sour recipe (oud bruin) that I wanted to ferment like you would a berliner by throwing 5335 and incubating at 90F for 5-7 days.... then throw some 1007, roselare blend, and french oak cubes at it. The plan would be to keg it in about 2 months and then bottle from the keg allowing it to age in the bottles and start drinking them as they age.
Cool man. I'd be interested to know how your one turns out too. Mind sharing your oud bruin recipe? I'm in the process of modifying mine a bit.

I wont be using any sacc on the recommendation of Mr madest of fermentationists. I will just let the lacto go for about a week and then pitch the brett lambicus.

For my gose, i only gave it a couple days before pitching the yeast. Needed to give it more time.

I am planning on letting mine go for about 2 months as well. Though, I suspect mine will change less (not much?) over time due to using the brett as the primary yeast.
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Primary: DIPA, Quick Flanders, RIS, Flanders Red, Oud Bruin x 2, Fijoa Gose
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Bottled:Belgian strong ale with brett, Belgian strong ale, Belg Amber, Belg blonde, Belg dark Strong, Belg not-wit, Belg tripel, berry blonde, belg stout, coffee dubbel, chili APA, APA, Belgian Dubbel, Rye (Brett) Saison
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:49 PM   #14
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Give it a shot and let us know the results. We'd all like a quicker way to make flanders tasting beers.

I'm certainly not against experimenting. I was just disappointed in my lacto Brett beer and want to offer it as a data point. I did a grain based lacto for 24hrs at 120f before adding the WL lacto and going an additional six days at 120f. I let the temp come back down to room temp and pitched a WL Brett B starter.

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Old 04-19-2013, 11:47 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by kwadric View Post
Give it a shot and let us know the results. We'd all like a quicker way to make flanders tasting beers.

I'm certainly not against experimenting. I was just disappointed in my lacto Brett beer and want to offer it as a data point. I did a grain based lacto for 24hrs at 120f before adding the WL lacto and going an additional six days at 120f. I let the temp come back down to room temp and pitched a WL Brett B starter.
Yeah i'm just pitching a WY lacto starter. As i said, my gose isnt close to as tart as i was hoping. I'm going to leave it another month and see what happens
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Old 04-20-2013, 05:14 PM   #16
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I've been thinking about doing something similar. However, I was thinking of doing it even quicker than the 3 - 6 months you're talking about. My plan was to sour mash (or sour wort) for a few days to get the sourness, then boil as usual to kill the lacto, then ferment 'clean' with Brett Brux trois. My thought was that with only brett in primary, it could be ready in typical ale timeframes (with a little extra time for sour mashing), but will hopefully develop a nice fruity ester profile from the lactic acid + trois combo. Still not as complex as the real deal, but hopefully with just enough character to satisfy my 'sour tooth'

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Old 04-26-2013, 03:40 AM   #17
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Today was brewday. About a week ago I made up just over 1 gallon's worth of wort using dme (1.045) and chucked some grains into it. I kept this at around 30-35C for a week. At the same time I have been stepping up a starter of Wyeast Lacto. I have been having a hard time deciding on how i want to approach the souring.

I decided to use slightly less water in my sparge, and added the gallons worth of sour as all buggery (but very clean otherwise) soured wort to the rest of the wort bringing the total volume in the fermenter up to 23L.

I kept the IBU down to just below 10 to keep the lacto going. I intend to boil some hops later on (hop tea) to bring the bitterness up some more. I heave heard all kinds of calculations that state this adding bitterness with hop tea is a foolish endeavor, but my personal experience indicates otherwise.

Anyhoo.... post boil the wort already has a mild tartness thanks to the gallon of sour wort and to a lesser degree accidulated malt. So, I pitched the Lacto starter and Brett lambicus together. I did not make a starter for the brett and i did not aerate. My thinking is that the brett will have quite a long lag phase (as brett tends to) which will:
a) give the lacto time to do its thing some more
b) provide more of the cherry brett flavours on account of being more stressed.

I consider this whole thing an experiment, so we shall see what comes of it. This is the recipe i used:

Quick Brown Fox
Flanders Brown Ale/Oud Bruin

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 23.0
Total Grain (kg): 6.300
Total Hops (g): 16.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.061 (°P): 15.0
Final Gravity (FG): 1.011 (°P): 2.8
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 6.50 %
Colour (SRM): 19.4 (EBC): 38.2
Bitterness (IBU): 9.3 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
4.000 kg Golden Promise Malt (63.49%)
1.000 kg Vienna (15.87%)
0.500 kg Caramunich I (7.94%)
0.250 kg Acidulated Malt (3.97%)
0.250 kg Cane Sugar (3.97%)
0.250 kg Special-B (3.97%)
0.050 kg Black Malt (0.79%)

Hop Bill
----------------
16.0 g Styrian Golding Pellet (5% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.7 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------

Single step Infusion at 64°C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 20°C with Wyeast 5526 - Brettanomyces lambicus & Wyeast 5335 – Lactobacillus

If the brett does not ferment it through completely due to too much stress, I will pitch a starter of brett trois as well. I will give it a month or so before making decision however.

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Primary: DIPA, Quick Flanders, RIS, Flanders Red, Oud Bruin x 2, Fijoa Gose
Keg: Gose, Amber/APA
Bottled:Belgian strong ale with brett, Belgian strong ale, Belg Amber, Belg blonde, Belg dark Strong, Belg not-wit, Belg tripel, berry blonde, belg stout, coffee dubbel, chili APA, APA, Belgian Dubbel, Rye (Brett) Saison
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Old 04-26-2013, 08:55 AM   #18
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Three and a half hours later and the lacto is going nuts in there. The airlock is going and it has a nice layer of froth. Good to know that lacto starter did its job.

Now to wait and see...

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Primary: DIPA, Quick Flanders, RIS, Flanders Red, Oud Bruin x 2, Fijoa Gose
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Bottled:Belgian strong ale with brett, Belgian strong ale, Belg Amber, Belg blonde, Belg dark Strong, Belg not-wit, Belg tripel, berry blonde, belg stout, coffee dubbel, chili APA, APA, Belgian Dubbel, Rye (Brett) Saison
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:21 AM   #19
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Good updates. I'm excited to hear how it goes in a few more days and hopefully you will do a taste test.

I just did mine this weekend. Its fermenting at 90F like gangbusters with 5335! I'm planning on throwing Roesalare or 1007 to it depending on the gravity reading and taste.

Again, please keep us updated!

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Old 04-30-2013, 06:41 AM   #20
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As mentioned above, I pitched the lacto and brett L at the same time. The brett got started much faster than i was led to believe it would. It pretty nice and tart now, and the brett is getting darn funky. I've had krausen filling the entire head space for 3 days now. Very vigorous.

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Primary: DIPA, Quick Flanders, RIS, Flanders Red, Oud Bruin x 2, Fijoa Gose
Keg: Gose, Amber/APA
Bottled:Belgian strong ale with brett, Belgian strong ale, Belg Amber, Belg blonde, Belg dark Strong, Belg not-wit, Belg tripel, berry blonde, belg stout, coffee dubbel, chili APA, APA, Belgian Dubbel, Rye (Brett) Saison
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