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Old 02-21-2014, 12:36 PM   #11
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I know the answer is buy he book ...... but it is not available yet.

Why suggest pitching a 'large' amount of yeast. I was under the impression that if you pitched low (very low), the yeast would take it's time developing to critical mass, allowing time for the everything else to get a start in developing their colonies before the sacc started producing alcohol. Once alcohol is in there, everything slows down.

I was under the impression that a low sacc population was the 'magic' of the mix packs from WLP and Wyeast.
Many American breweries (e.g., Russian River, New Belgium) conduct a complete fermentation with brewer’s yeast before even introducing the other microbes. I like to get the bugs going, but they don’t do much until well after the Sacch is done. There are certainly arguments for manipulating pitching rate to control ester production in a clean beer, but the Brett is going to create/destroy esters anyway, so I’d rather just pitch plenty of brewer’s yeast to ensure primary fermentation gets done quickly and without a bunch of fusels or other off-flavors.

This is different than a spontaneous fermentation where there are microbes that can only thrive before primary fermentation (entric bacteria). In the case of Lacto, Pedio, and Brett they are all capable of working post-primary, and in the case of Pedio and Brett probably prefer it (lower oxygen for the Pedio, lower pH for the Brett).

What I tend to advocate is the method with the least risk. As homebrewers we don’t have the luxury of dozens of barrels to pick and choose from for blending (and the ability to dump 10-20% without worry). Once you get your feet wet, that’s the time to start playing on the edges to see if it improves the character of your beers.

I brewed some crappy beers pitching just the "magic" blends alone, so I don't advocate it.
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Old 02-21-2014, 01:14 PM   #12
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I thought it was: pedio will throw diacetyl, and the Brett will clean it up? In my experience the Sacch doesn't live very long after it's primary fermentation in a sour beer.
This is my understanding too, which I've seen reiterated multiple times.
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:42 PM   #13
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For what it's worth, I was just listening to a Sunday session from the brewing network and Vinnie from Russian River said they like to pitch Sacc and let it finish. Then they pitch Brett and let it grow for a couple months. The Brett will grow better before the pH drop, so they give it some time before finally pitching the Pedio/Lacto.

He also mentions that in a higher alcohol beer, the Pedio will be more subtle. So, for really sour ales, there's probably a balance in gravity between residual sugars for the bugs but not going too high in ABV.

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Old 02-21-2014, 06:49 PM   #14
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I thought it was: pedio will throw diacetyl, and the Brett will clean it up? In my experience the Sacch doesn't live very long after it's primary fermentation in a sour beer.
Got that twisted around in my head. You're correct.

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Old 02-25-2014, 07:58 PM   #15
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He also mentions that in a higher alcohol beer, the Pedio will be more subtle. So, for really sour ales, there's probably a balance in gravity between residual sugars for the bugs but not going too high in ABV.
if i remember correctly, the issue here is that pedio stops working around 8% ABV. so if sacch takes the beer to 6%, and there is enough residual sugar for the brett will continue until 10%, the pedio will only be active for some of that time (i.e. however long it takes brett to get the beer to 8%). if you want pedio to be active until the end, keep it under 8%.
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Old 02-26-2014, 01:17 AM   #16
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if i remember correctly, the issue here is that pedio stops working around 8% ABV. so if sacch takes the beer to 6%, and there is enough residual sugar for the brett will continue until 10%, the pedio will only be active for some of that time (i.e. however long it takes brett to get the beer to 8%). if you want pedio to be active until the end, keep it under 8%.
If you want to play it safe, since the Brett will munch where the Sacc won't go, should you calculate potential ABV based on 100% attenuation? So, if the Brett's eats all of the sugars, you still don't breach Pedio's tolerance.
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Old 02-26-2014, 04:41 PM   #17
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If you want to play it safe, since the Brett will munch where the Sacc won't go, should you calculate potential ABV based on 100% attenuation? So, if the Brett's eats all of the sugars, you still don't breach Pedio's tolerance.
yup, that's how i would handle it - if you want the pedio active all the way through. vinnie plans his fermentation of bigger beers so that pedio is only active part of the time, on purpose, in order to prevent them from souring too much. all depends on what you want to do.
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Drinking: a farmhouse with ECY08 & brett blend
Fermenting: wet-hopped harvest ale x 2, sour cherry mead, imperial chocolate stout and its not-so-small second runnings beer
Aging: oud bruin & a few other sours, acerglyn, a BDSA
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