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Old 08-13-2013, 01:52 PM   #11
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Are red wines high enough in anthocyanins to cause bitterness issues?
More info.
Anthocyanin may be an issue with a LAB. I cannot find a general anthocyanin content of grape must but there are grapes that can contain up to 800mg anthocyanin per 100g of grapes. That's about half what I had with my purple corn but I only used a couple pounds of purple corn and this will be a full must from something pretty rich in anthocyanin. Plus well the problem I had with my beer was only discovered through a wine defect listing so it can certainly be an issue for your project.

I'd read through Thackery's stuff a bit more because he does discuss at some point having lactic acid bacteria issues. I don't know if that issue led to bitter taint or just too much acidity.

Maybe the trick would be to have an underattenuated wine with a lactic acid component to balance the sweetness?
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Old 08-13-2013, 07:03 PM   #12
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Well, I think one of the major things here is that the drink itself, if I am being historically accurate, is not palatable on its own anyways. It is something that is supposed to dry out too far and get a bit vinegar-like. That's why the "replications" of nowadays is to simply take red wine vinegar and mix it with honey and spices. It would be an interesting thing to be able to make it palatable without additives (beyond spices thrown into the fermenter)

I guess one way that I could make it sweeter on its own would be instead of using that Roeselare blend, take a sweet wine yeast and add lacto and pedio. This will skip all funk, but might give the bacteria more room to play their own part. I could always take a sample after a few months sitting like that and get an idea of whether to bottle or throw in some wild yeast for a more complex flavor.

Another route would be to possibly throw a kombucha scoby in to the wine as its fermenting so that I get a lot of the bacteria, including the acetic ones so that I get that vinegary taste. I just would have a theoretical shelf life on how long this would actually contain alcohol at that point.

Another thought would be to do brettanomyces lambicus at the same time as the kombucha scoby. Allow all the players to fight it out for several months and then try it out. (Whichever tastes the best I will then reproduce as a large batch)

I might just split the wine kit into several batches. Each one using a different method, marking them all, then noting the differences after a year when I would taste them.

Also, I am having a hard time finding his documents that actually have to do with the wine making process he uses. What I found last night was mostly historical documents that he had compiled onto his site. Judging by the titles, they did not look like they had any direct content dealing with how the wine is made.

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Old 08-13-2013, 08:09 PM   #13
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I guess one way that I could make it sweeter on its own would be instead of using that Roeselare blend, take a sweet wine yeast and add lacto and pedio.
Pedio kicks out a lot of diacetyl. You may still want the brett there to clean it up. Residual sugar left from primary will be consumed in secondary. Any number of options from there if you want it sweet. Carbonate then pasteurize (Pappers method in the cider forum works pretty well), sweeten at serving (syrup, honey, sweet wine, sugar cube), etc.

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I might just split the wine kit into several batches. Each one using a different method, marking them all, then noting the differences after a year when I would taste them.
I think that's a great idea. You'll learn from it (so will we if you share) and have some blending options at the end.
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Old 08-13-2013, 09:09 PM   #14
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Hmm, good point. I didn't consider what off flavors that pedio would throw off. More food for thought while I plan this out.

I will keep you all informed. I will be starting this experiment next month after a bit more research and give full details and pictures.

The one thing that I did decide was that I will do this to a merlot. I will throw a dowel of oak into each of them as well to give a bit of oak flavor and a place for the bugs to live.

This weekend I will be doing a different sort of experiment that I will post about: Brett B Maple Syrup Wine. I am going to do small tastings to figure out what the spices will be that I will put into it to give mild notes and complexities. (I know; I probably sound a bit crazy...)

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Old 08-13-2013, 10:10 PM   #15
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Hmm, good point. I didn't consider what off flavors that pedio would throw off. More food for thought while I plan this out.
Buttered vinegar, yum!

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The one thing that I did decide was that I will do this to a merlot. I will throw a dowel of oak into each of them as well to give a bit of oak flavor and a place for the bugs to live.
I like to boil oak cubes ~10 min then soak them in wine for a couple weeks to mellow the character. Forget if I stole that from Jeff Sparrow or Michael Tonsmeire but it seems to work well.

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(I know; I probably sound a bit crazy...)
Yup but in a good way. You and levifunk should probably hang out.
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:01 PM   #16
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Tonight it begins. I will do this in 3 2-gallon batches.
Batch 1: Brettanomyces Bruxellensis & wild capture from my patio
Batch 2: Brettanomyces Bruxellensis & kombucha SCOBY (will add after the krausen falls)
Batch 3: Roeselare blend

I will post pictures tonight after I fill the carboys and pitch the yeast/bacteria.

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Old 09-13-2013, 04:05 PM   #17
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Keep us posted. This is interesting.

I'm skeptical that the Roeselare will get you much souring in a grape must. It's mostly simple sugars, which the sacc will eat up quickly, and slower owrking bugs are just going to be outdone. There's not going to be anything left for them once the sacc is finished (which won't take long). Anyway, that's my hunch. I'm curious to see what actually happens.

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Old 09-13-2013, 04:41 PM   #18
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Maybe a 2oz addition of maltodextrin would help out with the funkyness, sourness I don't know what would help that.

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Old 09-13-2013, 07:03 PM   #19
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An experiment occurred to me: Some strains of lacto produce alcohol. Would it perhaps work to ferment, say, two-thirds of a batch of wine with regular wine yeast and the remaining one-third exclusively with an alcohol-producing strain of lacto, with the intention of blending after fermentation to produce a sour wine?

For that matter, has anyone every tried fermenting anything exclusively with an alcohol-producing strain of lacto? If so, how did it turn out?

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Old 09-13-2013, 07:46 PM   #20
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I have made sour wine from Frontenac Gris hybrid wine grapes. I used natural yeast from the vineyard to ferment. It turned out rather well, but was not particularly balanced on its own. I made a spin on a Flemish Red with it.

https://sites.google.com/site/brouwe...ome/whiny-tart

It has turned out with a year of aging to be the best thing I have made to date.

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