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Old 04-28-2011, 06:01 PM   #1
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Default Pediococcus and Lactobacillus - Together?

So I'm continuing to work on a sour recipe. I used just Lacto on the first batch and while it's okay, it's not exactly what I was looking for. I'm trying to avoid Brett just so I don't have to have entirely separate gear. That said, I have a couple questions about Ped and Lacto I was hoping y'all could clarify:

1) With the lacto, you can pasturize to kill after you've soured. Can you do the same with Pedio? Again, I don't want to have to deal with entirely separate gear for sour beers like you generally need to do with Brett.

2) Can you use the two together or should they be used on segregated portions of wort separately? My plan is to use the second mash runnings as a separate portion to introduce the strains to. I can either put both into a single 1gallon portion of wort or I can split and run separate 1 gallon batches. Which would be better?

Thanks for the info!

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Old 04-28-2011, 06:11 PM   #2
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You can certainly use both Lacto and Pedio on the same beer, most souring microbe blends contain both, and most breweries pitch both. Sadly most Pedio strain produce a large amount of diacetyl which won’t be cleaned up unless you have Brett. The only brewery that uses Pedio without Brett (that I’m aware of) is Cascade. Not sure where they got their house culture from, but they seem to have a very odd system (when I visited the brewery they had the bungs of their barrels propped open slightly with Q-tips).

What is the Lacto batch lacking?

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Old 04-28-2011, 06:19 PM   #3
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Interesting. Super information too. Thanks Oldsock!!!

The lacto just didn't seem sour enough. Here was my process:

Pulled 3quarts wort from second runnings. Introduced 50ml (of the 100ml total package) into the wort. Held at 75-80 for 7 days. Then pasteurized and introduced into primary.

The sourness wasn't particularly distinct. It was there... but fairly mild. And I'm not sure if this is a good description, but it seemed to be a sharper sourness with a lighter mouth-feel than I was looking for. Wanted something more potent with a bigger mouth-feel.

Perhaps I should use the full 100ml?? Let it go longer?? Just pitch into the primary and let it rock and roll rather than doing the separate sour-batch?

Would love your thoughts.

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Old 04-28-2011, 06:36 PM   #4
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I would sour more of the wort, you just aren't going to produce enough lactic acid in 3 qrts to make a truly sour beer. You can sour the entire wort by cooling to ~120, pitching an active lacto culture and letting it go for a couple days, before bringing it up to ~150 to pasteurize. Then just ferment as normal.

Honestly Lacto isn’t a big cross contamination threat since it is so hop-averse. As long as you watch your sanitation I don’t think it would be much of a risk to add it post-boil and skip pasteurizing.

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Old 04-28-2011, 06:41 PM   #5
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interesting. okay... so i would pitch into the entire volume of wort and hold at 120 for two days? i have a brew belt, but 120 is pretty warm. any suggestions on how to hold that temp for that long on that volume of wort??

i guess my other question is with this method, do you pitch your normal yeast at the same time or wait until you're done with the lacto part? i'm guessing you wait because when you pasturize, you'd kill your regular yeast too.

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Old 04-28-2011, 07:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byproxy View Post
Interesting. Super information too. Thanks Oldsock!!!

The lacto just didn't seem sour enough. Here was my process:

Pulled 3quarts wort from second runnings. Introduced 50ml (of the 100ml total package) into the wort. Held at 75-80 for 7 days. Then pasteurized and introduced into primary.

The sourness wasn't particularly distinct. It was there... but fairly mild. And I'm not sure if this is a good description, but it seemed to be a sharper sourness with a lighter mouth-feel than I was looking for. Wanted something more potent with a bigger mouth-feel.

Perhaps I should use the full 100ml?? Let it go longer?? Just pitch into the primary and let it rock and roll rather than doing the separate sour-batch?

Would love your thoughts.
you could also sour a portion of the grain too.. mash in, mash out, let sit for a few days between 100 and 120 and it'll turn very sour. then sparge, add into the boil late and you're good to go.
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Old 04-28-2011, 08:26 PM   #7
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Quote:
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interesting. okay... so i would pitch into the entire volume of wort and hold at 120 for two days? i have a brew belt, but 120 is pretty warm. any suggestions on how to hold that temp for that long on that volume of wort??

i guess my other question is with this method, do you pitch your normal yeast at the same time or wait until you're done with the lacto part? i'm guessing you wait because when you pasturize, you'd kill your regular yeast too.
110-120 is ideal, but lower will work too (it will just take longer). Yep, wait to pitch the yeast until after you pasteurize. The problem with pre-souring is that if the pH drops too low the yeast can have problems completing a clean fermentation.
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Old 04-28-2011, 08:33 PM   #8
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The problem with pre-souring is that if the pH drops too low the yeast can have problems completing a clean fermentation.
how do i control or correct that prior to pitching the yeast?
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Old 04-28-2011, 08:38 PM   #9
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how do i control or correct that prior to pitching the yeast?
You'd have to take pH readings regularly and pasteurize when it reached the high 3.0s (or try to use your taste). Alternatively you could sour half the batch like this and get the other half going with the yeast, no matter how sour it gets the blend shouldn't be too sour for the yeast. I did this with decent results with a sour brown (although I used the a starter made from the lacto living on the grain).

The issue with any of these methods is that (in my opinion) they won’t make a sour beer with the same depth, acidity etc… as a “traditional” long aged mixed fermentation. Just donate your old clean gear to your sours and get some new tubing, racking canes etc… for your other beers.
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Old 04-28-2011, 08:48 PM   #10
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Sour mashing will take a long, long time at 75-80. You definitely need to keep it above 100 and preferably in the 110-120s, especially at first to make sure the lacto outperforms anything else. Probably much less of an issue if you are pitching a culture instead of getting a local source off your grain.

As far as heating a sour mash, during the summer I have been known to place it outside in direct sunlight to heat up. I do mine in a growler so it gets very warm in the sunlight and stays that way. I bring it in once it starts to foam up. From there I put it in a sink with some water and periodically add small amounts of boiling water to the sink to raise the temperature. It's not perfect and I can't control the temp overnight but you can get the sink water to 125 and it will take several hours to cool to 85. Then I add more water. Doing it that way I get a good amount of sourness in 2-3 days.

If you are trying to get sour, rather than just tart, you need to sour a much bigger portion of the wort. If you are trying to get some of that acetic acid flavor without using lacto and pedio you can add some white vinegar -- even after fermentation. I have had good success using a sour mash and adding a very small amount of vinegar to produce a more complex sour profile. If you want more acetic flavor you probably need to use pedio instead to avoid too much vinegar taste.

I know it is preferable to use separate equipment with sours/brett but I can tell you I have done several batches with brett, lacto, wild yeast, etc. with the same post boil equipment and I have yet to have any cross contamination from it. I give everything a long starsan soak and sometimes a brief boil.

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