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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Lambic & Wild Brewing > oxygen permeable bucket in water
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Old 03-02-2010, 07:52 PM   #11
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On closer look it seems that the O2 permeability is good (fairly similar to wood), however the large surface area to volume ratio is too large, causing too much O2 in for the batch size. Given that, I'm not sure why he states HDPE buckets are the second best.

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Old 03-02-2010, 08:34 PM   #12
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O2 permeability of a barrel is only double that of a glass carboy with a peg. An HDPE bucket is about 10x that of a barrel.

I leave my Flanders in plastic for 100 days, then rack to a keg and pitch another batch on the cake. Don't have an old enough beer to say how well this pipeline will work out but at 100 days it tastes pretty dang good.

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Old 03-03-2010, 04:23 AM   #13
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Sacch, do you continually re-use the same cake of bugs?

I have one that's gone through 3 generations now. First a Flanders Red wort recipe, followed by an English brown and finally a RIS. I'm curious to see how these all turn out with a bunch of bugs & some oak over a year or 2.

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Old 03-03-2010, 04:33 AM   #14
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Yeah the second pitch is definitely maturing faster than the first. Though I am not sure what will happen with subsequent pitches. I have heard many tell tales of the second and subsequent pitches being much more sour which is what I want in any case. In about 6-9 months we will see how well it worked out.

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Old 03-03-2010, 08:29 AM   #15
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From reading "Wild Brews" it is my understanding that if you do use a HDPE bucket you will get the O2 required for Flanders Reds and Lambics, however the rate of exposure will cause a quickly maturing beer that may not have the complexity desired.

Personally, when I have my first go at a Flanders I'll be trying the carboy trick with a wooden peg in the top as linked in RDWHAHB's post.
This is what I have heard also, that is why I'm thinking about trying the bucket submerged.
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Old 03-03-2010, 01:06 PM   #16
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I need to grab a copy of "Wild Brews". Sounds like a good resource.

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Old 03-03-2010, 01:42 PM   #17
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I need to grab a copy of "Wild Brews". Sounds like a good resource.
The book is a must own for any brewer interested in sours
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Old 03-03-2010, 03:33 PM   #18
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it's not all that terrible to get extra O2 in certain situations. as a few have pointed out it can help accelerate and add extra souring to a sour brew that might otherwise take much longer and result in a much less sour flavor. i'm trying a 100% brett in a bucket right now since i'm looking for extra O2 to help expedite the souring process. it's an experiment since all my other sours have been in glass. we'll see how it goes, but the extra permeability might not necessarily be a terrible thing given certain circumstances. if you're storing your sour for long periods of time in a plastic bucket i think over the long run you'll introduce way too much O2, though. gotta draw that fine line

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Old 03-05-2010, 05:28 PM   #19
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A bucket in water would still let alot of O2 in!
Oxygen Permeability cc-mm/m2-day, 23C of WATER is 34400
On the other hand wood oak is 57

I would try out the wooden peg next. Although my current batch is in a glass carboy and in my opinion has a perfect amount of sour balance using wlp655

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Old 03-05-2010, 09:21 PM   #20
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on the subject, based on experience the DO of water is usually half the concentration in the atmosphere in ambient conditions. envl sci after googling it looks as though it dependent on the temerature so high temps = less DO. this also makes sense if you fish since high DO = faster metabolism. here you are:
http://www.kywater.org/ww/ramp/rmdo2.htm

Table IV
Solubility Of Oxygen in Fresh Water (100% Saturation)

Temperature
oC
PPM (mg/L)
Dissolved Oxygen
Temperature

oC PPM (mg/L)
Dissolved Oxygen

0 14.6 23 8.7
1 14.2 24 8.5
2 13.9 25 8.4
3 13.5 26 8.2
4 13.2 27 8.1
5 12.8 28 7.9
6 12.5 29 7.8
7 12.2 30 7.7
8 11.9 31 7.5
9 11.6 32 7.4
10 11.3 33 7.3
11 11.1 34 7.2
12 10.8 35 7.1
13 10.6 36 7.0
14 10.4 37 6.8
15 10.2 38 6.7
16 9.9 39 6.6
17 9.7 40 6.5
18 9.5 41 6.4
19 9.3 42 6.3
20 9.2 43 6.2
21 9.0 44 6.1
22 8.8 45 6.0

to answer the question, you can't exactly control the amount of O2 you introduce, but the water will keep some of the O2 out of the bucket, just not all.

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