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Old 06-15-2013, 09:25 PM   #21
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But what if I only have lacto in my primary? Then I won't have off flavors, right?

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Old 06-16-2013, 03:09 AM   #22
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But what if I only have lacto in my primary? Then I won't have off flavors, right?
Not sure on that one - you'll have to see what others recommend for target fermentation temps.
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Old 06-16-2013, 08:40 PM   #23
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I'm just going off the idea of sour mashing at 110 or whatever it's suppose to be. Why not ferment at that if possible?

I think OldSock should try it while in San Diego, it's hot enough there and he's not busy or anything right now! :P

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Old 06-16-2013, 10:37 PM   #24
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When I made mine, I mashed as normal and boiled for about a minute without any hops. When the temp was under 110, I used the lacto that was on some spare malt and let it ferment in my Texas garage in July. After a couple days, I added some saison yeast, since I figured it could handle the garage equally well. Came out blazingly sour and very enjoyable.

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Old 06-17-2013, 11:58 AM   #25
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I'm just going off the idea of sour mashing at 110 or whatever it's suppose to be. Why not ferment at that if possible?

I think OldSock should try it while in San Diego, it's hot enough there and he's not busy or anything right now! :P
This is actually a fairly common technique, pre-souring the wort anaerobically before pasteurizing and finishing the fermentation with brewer's yeast. Holding it warm speeds up the process, but isn’t necessary.

The problem is that if you let the pH drop too low (< 3.4) you can have issues with the health of the primary yeast. We’re kicking around an idea to use a 100% Lacto souring followed by a 100% Brett fermentation. Brett is acid tolerant down much lower than Saccharomyces, and we’ll get all sorts of fun flavors to go along with the acid. I did something like that a few years ago with decent results, but we’ll see if we can make it work on the big system.
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Old 06-18-2013, 01:49 AM   #26
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The problem is that if you let the pH drop too low (< 3.4) you can have issues with the health of the primary yeast.
I've seen this same idea mentioned a lot. Without specifically saying it's 100% false, I feel obligated to point out that apple and grape juices each have a pH below 3.4, and ale yeasts seem to chew through those easily. Whatever off-flavors you get from stressed yeast at a pH of 3-3.5 will probably be covered up by that same pH anyway.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:06 PM   #27
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I've seen this same idea mentioned a lot. Without specifically saying it's 100% false, I feel obligated to point out that apple and grape juices each have a pH below 3.4, and ale yeasts seem to chew through those easily. Whatever off-flavors you get from stressed yeast at a pH of 3-3.5 will probably be covered up by that same pH anyway.
Good point. Maybe the issue is a combination of pH and sugar profile? Much easier for yeast to ferment the simple sugars in juice than the more complex sugars in wort?

What do you mean by off flavors being covered up by the pH? Lactic acid really doesn't do much to hide off flavors. A friend did a pre-pitched Lacto ferment and ended up with some pretty bad (phenolic) off flavors.

Here is a quote from "The Effect of pH on Yeast (Saccharomyces cerivisae) Alcohol Production in Beer" that looked at the fermentation in various buffered solutions:

"At pH 3, the average alcohol by weight (ABW) percentage was 3.788% ± 0.026% (±SEM, N=5); at pH 5, the average ABW percentage was 4.370% ± 0.026% (±SEM, N=5); at pH 6, the average ABW percentage was 3.761% ± 0.026% (±SEM, N=5); at pH 8, the average ABW percentage was 3.141% ± 0.058% (±SEM, N=5)."

So lower attenuation at a low pH. Sadly, the more standard final pH of ~4 was not included.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:45 PM   #28
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What is a "good" pH level for a berliner weisse? Im going to get some wine strips today and test it out.

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Old 06-18-2013, 02:49 PM   #29
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What is a "good" pH level for a berliner weisse? Im going to get some wine strips today and test it out.
I like low 3s, but then my Berliners taste more like light-gueuzes.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:29 PM   #30
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I test my berliner and the pH was at 3.4. I then opened an 1809 Berliner and rested that at about 3.2. The crispness if that was amazing. Hopefully in time I can get down to a 3.2 or less. With this current batch, I'm tossing in some Quince for a bit then tapping it. I understand Berliners take time on achieving a high quality sourness but I need a summer drink on tap now.

I also did a one gallon batch and added the slurry from the current berliner plus dregs from the 1809. Hopefully I can get something interesting to grow in there. If anyone knows of other beers that have lacto in it that I can add to the mix, please let me know!

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