Happy HolidaySs Giveaway - Last Sponsor Giveaway of the Year!

Come Enter the BrewDeals/FastFerment Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Lambic & Wild Brewing > My Red isn't sour
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 07-07-2010, 07:06 PM   #11
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 22,186
Liked 1042 Times on 696 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

JoMarky, I don't think the OP is using a silicone stopper.

Good info here: http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/ap...shredale.shtml

I guess I'm just being a purist about the requirement of acetic in Flanders Red. The issue with Jamil saccharomyces pre-ferment is that it uses up all the available O2 before ever introducing acetobacter and other oxidative organisms. Granted, I think he likes his sours on the very mild side.

I suppose everyone's tolerance for acetic is different but I when the complaint is "not sour enough", I doubt it would be an issue.

Chase, have you tested the gravity lately? If you're down around 1.006 or so, I'm pretty sure acetobacter is the only thing that's going to make it more sour (ethanol->acetic).

No, I've never done a Flanders in glass myself. I'm not an expert either.

__________________
BrewHardware.com has a new website. Please check it out and let me know what you think!
New Stainless Steel Heating Elements are IN!
Did you know we are now a full service homebrew shop selling malt, hops, yeast (Wyeast), etc?
Bobby_M is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-07-2010, 07:49 PM   #12
JoMarky
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 363
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_M View Post
JoMarky, I don't think the OP is using a silicone stopper.

Good info here: http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/ap...shredale.shtml
I was assuming since he said "rubber" airlock he was actually using the silicone stoppers that are commonly used to hold our airlocks.

And that website has invaluable information, including the chart I "qouted" regarding oxygen permeability.
__________________
JoMarky is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-07-2010, 08:02 PM   #13
Oldsock
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Oldsock's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: DC, Washington DC
Posts: 3,107
Liked 186 Times on 126 Posts
Likes Given: 112

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_M View Post
It needs a bit more oxygen than a carboy lets in. You'll do better with a loose cover like foil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby_M View Post
No, I've never done a Flanders in glass myself. I'm not an expert either.
Next time I'd suggest trying out an idea as radical as open fermenting a sour before trying to convince someone to experiment with their year old beer (at a minimum let them know that you haven’t tried it). It might work, but odds are that much oxygen all at once will create more problems than it solves.

The only way I was able to get my first Flanders Red (Jamil’s recipe) as sour as I wanted was to add blackberries, the acid helps, and the simple sugars feed the lactic acid bacteria. Blackberries are especially nice since their flavor isn’t as distinct as something like raspberry or sour cherry. It might be worth doing fruit in half and malto-dextrin/DME in the other half for some variety.
__________________

Check out The Mad Fermentationist for my adventures in fermentation and my book: American Sour Beers!

Oldsock is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-07-2010, 08:34 PM   #14
ryane
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Washington
Posts: 798
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldsock View Post
Next time I'd suggest trying out an idea as radical as open fermenting a sour before trying to convince someone to experiment with their year old beer (at a minimum let them know that you haven’t tried it). It might work, but odds are that much oxygen all at once will create more problems than it solves.
.
I agree open fermenting a sour is generally a bad idea, even for a short amount of time, Oldsock if you remember the red of mine you tasted in Dec, that one was open to air for ~1week and went bad in that short amount of time, it was a nail polish bomb

BTW I like to see that your starting to make "starters" of sour dregs, Ive had some bad luck with dregs making terrible flavors, just like you saw in the RR dregs, Ive been amazed by how fast dregs cane turns something terrible
ryane is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-07-2010, 09:07 PM   #15
Oldsock
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Oldsock's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: DC, Washington DC
Posts: 3,107
Liked 186 Times on 126 Posts
Likes Given: 112

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryane View Post
BTW I like to see that your starting to make "starters" of sour dregs, Ive had some bad luck with dregs making terrible flavors, just like you saw in the RR dregs, Ive been amazed by how fast dregs cane turns something terrible
I've learned my lesson, no more open fermented bug starters. I've started keeping starters of Brett B and lacto on hand, probably will add Brett L and pedio to the list. Plus maybe a house bug culture of some sort. it would be nice to make my results a bit more repeatable (although luckily its been a couple years since I made an undrinkable sour beer).
__________________

Check out The Mad Fermentationist for my adventures in fermentation and my book: American Sour Beers!

Oldsock is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-07-2010, 09:51 PM   #16
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 22,186
Liked 1042 Times on 696 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

Loose fitting cover = open fermentation? I'm talking about getting a trace amount of additional oxygen in there, not pouring it in a bathtub ;-)

Perhaps getting a silicone stopper is the answer.

__________________
BrewHardware.com has a new website. Please check it out and let me know what you think!
New Stainless Steel Heating Elements are IN!
Did you know we are now a full service homebrew shop selling malt, hops, yeast (Wyeast), etc?
Bobby_M is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-08-2010, 03:14 AM   #17
chase
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
chase's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Urbana, IL
Posts: 370
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts

Default

Ok, to answer some things.

I am using a silicone stopper. I've removed it about once a month to smell the beer and then replaced it. The airlock fluid has been changed/topped-off regularly so it hasn't dried. There has been a steady thin pellicle for about 9mo. I've been working under the assumption that pellicles form in the presence of oxygen. So if this is correct, I think a small amount of O2 has been getting in.

Despite my greatest desire not to, I took another sample, but this time I took enough to get a gravity reading. SG=1.010. So it looks like it still has some sugars left to consume.

I would describe the aroma as very lightly acetic and plenty funky. The flavor is borderline unpleasant. It has a very very light sourness and a flavor that is hard to describe, but I'm hoping it is from the Brett, just at an early stage.

Since there is some gravity to the beer, I think I'd prefer to just let it sit a while longer, assuming that those points will get converted into something sour. I don't think I want to try the tin foil thing. I've been reading oldsock's blog for a few years, and I trust his opinion in these things (nothing personal Bobby). I don't have anything to compare this beer to since this is my first sour. I don't have an especially sensitive palatte so picking flavors out of commercial beers isn't something I'm good at, though I think I will try when I pick up some more sours at the store.

I can add some more cultures to the beer, but the local liquor store only stocks a couple sours; Rodenbach, Monk's Cafe, and some Lost Abbeys. I could also order something online. Any suggestions?

__________________

1º #1: RIS
1º #2: -
2º #1: Flanders Red (2009)
2º #2: Lambic (2009)
2º #3: Flanders Red (2010)
2º #4: Lambic (2010)
2º #5: Old Ale

chase is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-08-2010, 02:48 PM   #18
Oldsock
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Oldsock's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: DC, Washington DC
Posts: 3,107
Liked 186 Times on 126 Posts
Likes Given: 112

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chase View Post
I can add some more cultures to the beer, but the local liquor store only stocks a couple sours; Rodenbach, Monk's Cafe, and some Lost Abbeys. I could also order something online. Any suggestions?
Sounds like a good plan. Most bottled Belgian Flanders Reds are pasteurized. I had great luck with a bottle of Lost Abbey's Red Poppy in our barrel aged FR. Here is a list of sours with live dregs I've been putting together: http://www.themadfermentationist.com...tle-dregs.html you should be able to find something locally.
__________________

Check out The Mad Fermentationist for my adventures in fermentation and my book: American Sour Beers!

Oldsock is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-08-2010, 03:17 PM   #19
chase
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
chase's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Urbana, IL
Posts: 370
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldsock View Post
Sounds like a good plan. Most bottled Belgian Flanders Reds are pasteurized. I had great luck with a bottle of Lost Abbey's Red Poppy in our barrel aged FR. Here is a list of sours with live dregs I've been putting together: http://www.themadfermentationist.com...tle-dregs.html you should be able to find something locally.
Thanks. I remember reading that post, but lost the link. You don't by chance have a post with information on what each Brett and bug does to a beer do you?
__________________

1º #1: RIS
1º #2: -
2º #1: Flanders Red (2009)
2º #2: Lambic (2009)
2º #3: Flanders Red (2010)
2º #4: Lambic (2010)
2º #5: Old Ale

chase is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-08-2010, 03:47 PM   #20
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 2 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 22,186
Liked 1042 Times on 696 Posts
Likes Given: 28

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chase View Post

Since there is some gravity to the beer, I think I'd prefer to just let it sit a while longer, assuming that those points will get converted into something sour. I don't think I want to try the tin foil thing. I've been reading oldsock's blog for a few years, and I trust his opinion in these things (nothing personal Bobby).
No hard feelings here. I don't claim to always have the right answer. I think waiting longer is always an option with sours especially with 1.010 gravity and the presence of a pellicle.
__________________
BrewHardware.com has a new website. Please check it out and let me know what you think!
New Stainless Steel Heating Elements are IN!
Did you know we are now a full service homebrew shop selling malt, hops, yeast (Wyeast), etc?
Bobby_M is online now
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wanted: Sour beer lovers to taste a sour mash beer OldRalHoleBrewing Lambic & Wild Brewing 12 09-03-2012 05:16 AM
Sour! Help! brazedowl Cider Forum 18 07-20-2010 09:47 PM
Always sour mash for sour brews? jvlpdillon Lambic & Wild Brewing 4 04-27-2010 11:21 PM
attempting 1st sour....not sour enough bruinbeer Fermentation & Yeast 4 08-24-2009 10:54 PM
Going to try my first sour smellysell Recipes/Ingredients 10 03-06-2009 05:15 PM



Newest Threads

Ok?

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS