Lambic: Long aging, airlocks and temp swings

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twigboy2000

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Just curious how everyone handles this.

I've got two carboys of lambic going in the basement beer cave and I've noticed that this time of year when temp starts to swing my airlocks start to suck back in.

With the cold snap we had this past week it pulled a little of the Starsan into the carboy. I'm not terribly worried about it, but I am considering just putting one of those universal stoppers with an oak dowel driven through it for the long haul instead of the airlock.

I don't think the beer is going to off-gas much more at this point, as it doesn't seem to be generating positive pressure inside anymore.

Thoughts? I really want to be careful here since it is such a long term investment.

-chuck
 
i've had this problem - the s-type airlock solves it as it won't suck back water (it ventilates itself both ways)
 
I should add that obviously you wouldn't want to use the air filter for long storage of other beers (as that link notes), but perhaps it's okay for lambics, since you want a small amount of air flow and since the pellicle is protecting the beer from oxidation. Or maybe not?
 
I wouldnt worry about it, the S locks are nicer for long term aging and they dont seem to dry out as fast either

I would avoid the airfilter, as you really dont want O2 getting to the beer, all it does is create vinegar, and the small amounts getting in already are sufficient
 
jtakacs said:
i've had this problem - the s-type airlock solves it as it won't suck back water (it ventilates itself both ways)
Click to expand...

I'm confused by this statement. If the issue is that they don't want suckback into the carboy, why would an S-type airlock be the way to go? I would think a three piece to be the way to go as it won't allow for this to happen.
 
BootsyFlanootsy said:
I'm confused by this statement. If the issue is that they don't want suckback into the carboy, why would an S-type airlock be the way to go? I would think a three piece to be the way to go as it won't allow for this to happen.
Click to expand...

No, jtakacs was correct -- an s-type airlock will bubble either way, without sucking water (or whatever you use in your airlock) into the beer when it's bubbling inward. A three piece will suck water in instead of bubbling if the pressure inside the fermenter is lower than the outside pressure.
 
That's right. I have the three piece type now and if the pressure differential is great enough, it sucks liquid back into the beer.

I'll pick up a few of the S-type and try them out.

-chuck
 
winnph said:
No, jtakacs was correct -- an s-type airlock will bubble either way, without sucking water (or whatever you use in your airlock) into the beer when it's bubbling inward. A three piece will suck water in instead of bubbling if the pressure inside the fermenter is lower than the outside pressure.
Click to expand...

I've never had this problem with the 3 piece airlocks, at least that I am aware of. I guess one could always go with a blow-off tube that was long enough and submerged in enough liquid to ensure that no suckback could happen.
 
With my lambics once primary is done I get rid of the airlock and replace it with a standard silicone stopper loosely placed so any gas can escape if it needs to. I use the holed ones with a custom made oak stick down the center. The pellicle will protect the beer from oxygen as well, so I don't worry about oxygen getting in too much.

If you still want some kind of protection, they make foam that will let gas flow, but keep air particles out. NorthernBrewer sells them in 3 sizes.

NorthernBrewer also sells vented stoppers, that will let CO2 gas escape but prevent anything from entering
 
ReverseApacheMaster said:
Same effect, just more distance between the airlock liquid and the beer.
Click to expand...

Well, if you get a long enough tube and put the blowoff liquid far enough below the mouth of the carboy, it will be physically impossible for the pressure differential to pull the water up into the beer. After all, one of the ways air pressure is measured is by the distance it can force water upward due to pressure differentials. As best I can tell based on a quick calculation, if your fermenter were the equivalent of being inside an incredibly strong hurricane (about 900 millibars) and the blowoff tube water was subjected to really high atmospheric pressure (1050 millibars), you'd need to place the surface of the blowoff water about four and a half feet below the mouth of the carboy to prevent the pressure differential from pulling up the water.

To find out whether a temperature swing in the carboy could create a pressure differential greater than about 150 millibars, you'd have to do some gas laws calculations and figure out how much headspace you have, which sounds like a bit too much work for what I had intended to be a slightly tongue-in-cheek response. But I'd imagine that it's possible, especially if you go from a heating pad to a refrigerated chamber or something. Might as well make it 6 feet just to be on the safe side.
 
winnph said:
Well, if you get a long enough tube and put the blowoff liquid far enough below the mouth of the carboy, it will be physically impossible for the pressure differential to pull the water up into the beer. After all, one of the ways air pressure is measured is by the distance it can force water upward due to pressure differentials. As best I can tell based on a quick calculation, if your fermenter were the equivalent of being inside an incredibly strong hurricane (about 900 millibars) and the blowoff tube water was subjected to really high atmospheric pressure (1050 millibars), you'd need to place the surface of the blowoff water about four and a half feet below the mouth of the carboy to prevent the pressure differential from pulling up the water.

To find out whether a temperature swing in the carboy could create a pressure differential greater than about 150 millibars, you'd have to do some gas laws calculations and figure out how much headspace you have, which sounds like a bit too much work for what I had intended to be a slightly tongue-in-cheek response. But I'd imagine that it's possible, especially if you go from a heating pad to a refrigerated chamber or something. Might as well make it 6 feet just to be on the safe side.
Click to expand...

I glazed over the second you started talking about math.

I have seen temperature swings of 15F start pulling the liquid up a half inch tube out of a jar of star san I was using for blow off. I will agree with you that it is highly unlikely that the usual blow off set up is going to suck back liquid all the way into the fermenter. I have no idea if people who see temperature swings from the 40s-50s to the 90s-100s during a 24 hour period would create enough negative pressure to suck anything back in...
 
This was my solution.

-chuck

ForumRunner_20110409_150229.jpg
 
I like filling the airlock with cheap vodka whenever the level gets down.

With temp swings I have vodka pull back into the barrels and carboy from time to time.

One gallon of the $10 special lasts a long time.

BW
 
I've refluxed starsan & funky water into regular ales from blowoff reservoirs due to carelessness (forgot to switch from tubes to plugs when crash cooling). The dose of funky blowoff water had no discernible effect, while starsan left the other beer pretty astringent for about a month. For this reason I never use starsan in any of my blowoff reservoirs or airlocks anymore!
 
5111012116_c93f13c219.jpg


Put whatever liquid you want in the bucket, you can also put some in each coil, I simply tape the coils to the side of the fermentor, problem solved.:mug:
 
AndyG said:
I've refluxed starsan & funky water into regular ales from blowoff reservoirs due to carelessness (forgot to switch from tubes to plugs when crash cooling). The dose of funky blowoff water had no discernible effect, while starsan left the other beer pretty astringent for about a month. For this reason I never use starsan in any of my blowoff reservoirs or airlocks anymore!
Click to expand...

I'm surprised to hear that about the starsan. I leave ALOT of starsan foam in my fermenter, kegs, and bottles, and have had starsan suck back on TOP of all that, and have never gotten an off flavor from it. When I take a sample, I after dosing my baster good with starsan, I'd guess that my sample is at least 1% starsan, and I don't taste it in the sample. Figure that 1% to be the equivalent of almost 6.5 ounces into a five gallon batch... that's ALOT of starsan. I'm not sure the starsan was to blame.
 
May not have been the starsan, but the other carboy (was an 11 gal batch) didn't have the tongue drying astringency. Also, final runnings were in the low 1.020's and lautering was fairly cool (mid 160's). Not sure how much Starsan got in there, but it may have been as much as 8oz, or even a little more...

Have any of you tried those breathable silicone stoppers for long term storage?
 
AndyG said:
May not have been the starsan, but the other carboy (was an 11 gal batch) didn't have the tongue drying astringency. Also, final runnings were in the low 1.020's and lautering was fairly cool (mid 160's). Not sure how much Starsan got in there, but it may have been as much as 8oz, or even a little more...

Have any of you tried those breathable silicone stoppers for long term storage?
Click to expand...

I have one going on a nine month old Flanders Red and it is not vinegary and has an equal size pelicule as the traditional stopper/airlock seven month old Flanders Red it is sitting next to it. I would switch over to the silicone stoppers for all ten of my sours but the price is a bit much when I can just make sure my airlocks stay full. In your situation (with wild temp. variations), I would either switch to the silicone stoppers or go with temperature control for all your sours.
 

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