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Old 06-11-2013, 12:14 PM   #911
Pith
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Sounds like Kloeckera apiculata ate all the glucose from the maple syrup and then bummed out when they got to the maltose. Wait until it starts again; if there's other strains, they'll eat the dead K. apiculata and the other sugars and hopefully you'll get a nice krausen happening again. If it grows mould, start again and don't put maple syrup in until you're sure some of the maltose is being eaten. My 0.02 anyway. G'luck.

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Old 06-11-2013, 12:55 PM   #912
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First, thanks a lot guys.

Ok so now it seems after a little more research on the info you two gave me it probably is Kloeckera? I'm in the 2 week window and down the points that would have likely been added by the maple. I checked the grav again today, it hasn't budged. This has an extremely citric/tropic odor. Orange and Mango or papaya or something I can't place exactly, and a ton of funk. So my questions now are, is there anything wrong with pitching a yeast strain (perhaps saison) to finish this thing up now rather than wait hoping sachro takes over and no mold pops up? Also if I do this do you think I will still have some definite character from the Kloeckera or would the pitched strain dominate (I realize this is probably hard to say definitively but a guess or past experience?) also if it is k- will this be able to coexist with the pitched yeast? Say I like how this turns out and harvest the yeast cake. Will some of this character make it to the next batch?

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Old 06-11-2013, 05:24 PM   #913
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Hey!

I tried to find my answer in the thread but you know... after a few pages I lost the ambition...

2 weeks to get saccharomyces... really? I've seen people do only overnight and get some sort of yeast (sacch or brett..)

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Old 06-12-2013, 11:00 AM   #914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiroux
Hey!

I tried to find my answer in the thread but you know... after a few pages I lost the ambition...

2 weeks to get saccharomyces... really? I've seen people do only overnight and get some sort of yeast (sacch or brett..)
Ignore this thread and listen to the Jean Van Roy podcast on basic brewing radio.
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Old 06-12-2013, 01:55 PM   #915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marauder View Post
First, thanks a lot guys.

Ok so now it seems after a little more research on the info you two gave me it probably is Kloeckera? I'm in the 2 week window and down the points that would have likely been added by the maple. I checked the grav again today, it hasn't budged. This has an extremely citric/tropic odor. Orange and Mango or papaya or something I can't place exactly, and a ton of funk. So my questions now are, is there anything wrong with pitching a yeast strain (perhaps saison) to finish this thing up now rather than wait hoping sachro takes over and no mold pops up? Also if I do this do you think I will still have some definite character from the Kloeckera or would the pitched strain dominate (I realize this is probably hard to say definitively but a guess or past experience?) also if it is k- will this be able to coexist with the pitched yeast? Say I like how this turns out and harvest the yeast cake. Will some of this character make it to the next batch?
That sounds like a damn interesting contribution from whatever yeast have gotten to work! Is it a yeast character you enjoy?

What I would do personally is rack the brew off the yeast onto a Saison strain (save some of it so you still have some pure Saison yeast left over), especially if you are happy with how it's turning out so far, but don't pitch too much Saison as you might scrub off the wild character with the excess carbon dioxide. Also, ferment reasonably cool (ie cooler than summer outside) so the saison character doesn't dominate too much. Save the wild cake just in case you're really happy with how the beer turns out.

That way you get some wild character, plus a good dose of yeast character you know you'll like, and if you leave it in a carboy you might end up with some brett character a year or so down the track as they eat the complex carbs.

I think pitching is definitely worthwhile as you can never be sure if you'll get Sacch activity before mould kicks in. Either way, Brett won't show up until much later and is going to do so if it's there whether or not the wort is eaten by wild or cultivated Sacch.

Another idea is to rack off the wild cake, ferment slowly with a reasonably neutral strain (or lager it!), then dryhop with a tropical/citrussy hop.

As for "coexisting", the K. has done it's job and you won't hear from it again. It's either sleeping or dying; in my experience, from the autolysis taste I get from wild brews sometimes, it's likely the latter, so the other yeast will use their corpses for nutrients. K only eat glucose/dextrose and maybe fructose and I think they conk out at around 2-3 percent abv.
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Bulk Aging:
3787 Saaz/Styrian Porter (on palm sugar)
Autumn Wheat Beer (on "Profruit Krimsonberries")
3787 Bochet
Jack Keller's Seville Orange Wine
Bottled:
Nelson Sauvin Pale Ale
Autumn Wheat Beer
3787 Saaz/Styrian Porter
3787 Bochet
3787 Dubbel
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:40 AM   #916
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Yup so I pitched. I'm not worried about the saison yeast I have plenty. I'm fermenting very cool for a saison strain 68. Good to know if Brett is there it will do its thing later down the line anyway. I don't know if the wild yeast that ate the first 10-12 grav points imparted a character I am going to like or not, but it definitely imparted something! the saison yeast probably won't be able to scrub it all off, it is quite pungent haha. Hopefully it just mellows it a bit. When the saison finishes up I will rack to another carboy and play the waiting game for the Brett.

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Old 06-14-2013, 12:35 PM   #917
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After reading nearly all of this thread, I decided to take a stab as well. I threw some generously hopped pale ale into a couple of mason jars outside for an hour. Two days later I had what looked like to be moldy almost, little white circles. Next day, everything was all foamy, almost krausen-like. No real off smell to it. If I can find the chord I'll up some pictures.

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:18 AM   #918
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack_a_roe View Post
After reading nearly all of this thread, I decided to take a stab as well. I threw some generously hopped pale ale into a couple of mason jars outside for an hour. Two days later I had what looked like to be moldy almost, little white circles. Next day, everything was all foamy, almost krausen-like. No real off smell to it. If I can find the chord I'll up some pictures.
Mould is not good. I hope you skimmed it off.
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Primary:
7L of NSPA + 1kg honey + 3L white grape juice
Bulk Aging:
3787 Saaz/Styrian Porter (on palm sugar)
Autumn Wheat Beer (on "Profruit Krimsonberries")
3787 Bochet
Jack Keller's Seville Orange Wine
Bottled:
Nelson Sauvin Pale Ale
Autumn Wheat Beer
3787 Saaz/Styrian Porter
3787 Bochet
3787 Dubbel
Jack Keller's Seville Orange Wine
Wild Cyser
Future:
Stella-hopped Saison
Blackberry Wine or Bochet
Stout Bochet
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:05 PM   #919
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Oh, COLO,
I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier -- there is a way to get to a pure culture without solid media if you have a lot of sterile containers. It is called limiting dilutions. The idea is to dilute a culture enough times that only single cells remain.

You will need a bunch of tubes or containers about the size of the tubes you would use to make slants. And you will need something to move your culture/fresh wort around. A pipette with sterile tips is perfect. A bunch of sanitized metal spoons will work too.

The procedure is to take a drop of the most recent mixed wild culture and dilute it into 9 drops of fresh wort. If you're using a pipette, dilute 100 micro Liters into 1 mL. Either way, you have diluted the culture 1 to 10.

Now repeat this 10-fold dilution several times, each time taking a drop of the diluted wort from the previous step and diluting it further into 9 drops of fresh wort. Use a fresh pipette tip / sanitized spoon for each dilution.

Let's say, for example, you started with 1000 cells in your tube. After one dilution, you have 100 cells per tube. After two dilutions, you have 10 per tube. After three dilutions you have just one cell per tube. After four dilutions, you'd have -- either one cell or none at all. This is the level of dilution you want to get to, where most of the tubes don't contain any cells. At this level of dilution, you know that any tube that DOES grow, started from just one cell. This will get you to a pure culture!

But how many dilutions are requried? You're starting with more than 1000 cells, so it will take more than four dilutions, but not too many more. A White Labs tube is extremely dense with yeast, and it is about a billion cells per mL. A billion is 10^9. So, if you do 9, or let's be safe and say 10 of these 10-fold dilutions in a series on your culture, you should already be in the zone.

Let's say you find that all the dilutions starting with the sixth don't grow anything. Now, go back to the undiluted culture and do the 10-fold dilution six times, but make a bunch of tubes of that sixth dilution. Make 20 or so. You already know that most of them will not grow. But a few will grow, and you will know they started with just one cell.

Cells have a tough time growing by themselves, so make sure you keep the volume small, 1 mL at the most, aerate every day, and give the cultures plenty of time to grow. It might take a few weeks of aerating every day before the most extreme dilutions show signs of growth.

This is a lot of work, and I have only read about it, not tried it. But limiting dilution it is a standard microbiology technique and it will work! You may prefer to just buy some sterile plastic plates and agar, though.
drummstikk,

I think this is the most solid way to get a pure culture that I've read in this thread. Question though - When you sample the wild culture, would you do that immediately after you saw the most yeast activity? Around 2 weeks or so? Maybe even take some of the yeast from the bottom and create a new starter with that. Then sample from that starter? Would that help to ensure that the cell count of yeast is the highest compared to cell count of other microbes? Unless I am interpreting the way other microbes replicate, I'd rather not go through all this trouble only to end up with a pure culture of a microbe I didn't want to begin with.
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Old 08-24-2013, 12:11 PM   #920
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Since this thread keeps getting bumped, I'm just wondering... After 4 years and 919 posts, has anyone pointed out that the basis of this thread is a misinterpretation of Guinard as referring to inoculation, when he is actually referring to fermentation?

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