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Old 10-05-2012, 09:28 PM   #11
Aschecte
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I was talking about using Brett in the context of the original post (secondary). And in my experience, I have not gotten much sourness from Brett when used in secondary of an already dry Saison. You can get some sourness from Brett when used in primary with plenty of oxygen, but as far as I have read it only produces acetic acid. And the level of sourness is also strain dependent. I have thought sometimes that the sourness I get from 100% Brett beers is more than just acetic acid, but everything I've read says that's all Brett can produce. Would you mind sharing where you have read about Brett producing lactic acid?
Sure no problem I hope that didn't come off to argumentative that was not my intention. I also need to brush up on my contextual skills I didn't realize you were talking about secondary only. My source is from wild brews on page # 108 the whole section on Brett is very thorough.As a side note the easiest way to differentiate between lactic and acetic acid flavor is that lactic is tart and acetic is vinegar like,you will only get the stronger acetic acid if there is a lot of oxygen available to the Brett.
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:50 PM   #12
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I was talking about using Brett in the context of the original post (secondary). And in my experience, I have not gotten much sourness from Brett when used in secondary of an already dry Saison. You can get some sourness from Brett when used in primary with plenty of oxygen, but as far as I have read it only produces acetic acid. And the level of sourness is also strain dependent. I have thought sometimes that the sourness I get from 100% Brett beers is more than just acetic acid, but everything I've read says that's all Brett can produce. Would you mind sharing where you have read about Brett producing lactic acid?
It really depends on your TG. If there is sugar left, the beer will begin to develop a tart flavor (I've pitched Brett. L and Brett. B) at near TG 1.008 with saisons. I usually let them sit for over six months though, since I have a large backlog of sours (rough life I know).

I primarily pitch brett with a saison strain and have some very, very tart beers (at a year or so). I think it is a better way to go. I will taste monthly and pull it when I think it is at it's prime (usually about 3-4 months).
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Old 10-05-2012, 11:24 PM   #13
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Aschecte - I didn't think you were argumentative at all and sorry if my message felt that way. (I guess that is the problem with the written word).
I'll have to look that up in Wild Brews. Here is the reference I remember reading from Mr. Brett himself, Chad Y at Crooked Stave - http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/t...7266&pg=&tpg=1

And as far as the taste of each acid, "tart" refers to an amount of sourness to me not a flavor. And to me the flavors of each acid change considerably without amount. For example, acetic acid at low amounts gives a subtle "round" low amount of sourness, which helps boost fruity flavors, while large amounts of acetic acid create a very sharp feeling on the tongue like vinegar and boosts the mineral type flavors.

weremichael - What type of sourness do you think you have in your finished beers? And one thought that comes from your experience is that you might not have a pure culture of Brett, it is very easy to get some lactic bacteria mixed in with your culture (there were some reports White Labs did this originally with their Brett C).

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Old 10-06-2012, 12:05 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Almighty
Aschecte - I didn't think you were argumentative at all and sorry if my message felt that way. (I guess that is the problem with the written word).
I'll have to look that up in Wild Brews. Here is the reference I remember reading from Mr. Brett himself, Chad Y at Crooked Stave - http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/t...7266&pg=&tpg=1

And as far as the taste of each acid, "tart" refers to an amount of sourness to me not a flavor. And to me the flavors of each acid change considerably without amount. For example, acetic acid at low amounts gives a subtle "round" low amount of sourness, which helps boost fruity flavors, while large amounts of acetic acid create a very sharp feeling on the tongue like vinegar and boosts the mineral type flavors.

weremichael - What type of sourness do you think you have in your finished beers? And one thought that comes from your experience is that you might not have a pure culture of Brett, it is very easy to get some lactic bacteria mixed in with your culture (there were some reports White Labs did this originally with their Brett C).
Fwiw your reference does say Brett produces both lactic and acetic acid. The 6th post down the one from chad y says that lactic acid is formed but is a low amount and a few sentences later does say acetic acid is produced in copious amounts but only in aerobic conditions. I promise Brett can and will produce a sour beer but you need to give it time. Another point to consider is that a glass Carboy with a standard bung and airlock will allow appx. 20cc of oxygen trough the bung stopper and airlock which does make it somewhat suseptible to aerobic activity. I don't claim to know everything chris y, Jeff sparrow, John Palmer, or raj apte know about this topic but the one thing I am sure of is my Brett saison is sour not lambic sour but sour none the less.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:26 PM   #15
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Interesting note on the oxygen permeability of a carboy.

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Old 10-06-2012, 02:47 PM   #16
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Interesting note on the oxygen permeability of a carboy.
I was actually pretty suprised myself..... if you go on better bottles website they give you a comparison between BB, glass, and plastic buckets..... with a glass carboy you get no actual permability from the glass but you do gett around 20 cc of oxygen from the stopper and airlock. BB has spead sheets and scientific data on the site if nayone wants to check it out.
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:21 AM   #17
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I've used a variety of cultures: Lost Abbey farmhouse mix from White Labs which is very lactic after about a year. Brett. L. from Wyeast mixed with French saison yeast is very much like tart cherries (I have some that are almost two years old in the bottle). Crooked Stave brett has a kind of putrid/pineapple sharpness when fermented with a saison yeast after 6 months, and Brett. B. from Wyeast is the least acidic when fermented with a saison.

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Old 10-08-2012, 06:32 PM   #18
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I've done it with very good results.

I make a saison, I shoot for something not bone-dry... no sugar and mash at 156 or so. I've used both 3711 and the regular saison yeast. Around this time I make a small starter with the dregs of mixed fermentation beers.
I ferment the saison out in primary and then add it to secondary with the dregs. 4 months later, bottle it. It's sour!

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