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-   -   Funky saison questions???? (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/funky-saison-questions-358480/)

bastump218 10-03-2012 01:24 PM

Funky saison questions????
 
Want to brew a Saison and ferment out with a Saison ale yeast then rack to secondary and pitch a Brett or wild yeast strain and oak cubes....then when ready ads fruit and let sit for a while longer. Question is will this work......suggestions

Almighty 10-03-2012 04:51 PM

Well, it will work, but what are you going for in the end beer? You have to describe what you want the finished beer to taste like and then we can give you feedback on the best process.

bastump218 10-03-2012 05:14 PM

I want a sour Saison.....

Almighty 10-03-2012 06:04 PM

Ok that helps a little bit.
The Brett will not sour the beer, you will need to add lactic bacteria - Lacto or pedio. You could also do a sour mash or add acid malt. I would suggest that you look into techniques for making Berliner Weiss and then pitch a Saison yeast instead of a clean ale yeast.

The choice to add oak or fruit is just based on flavor. Oak helps with mouthfeel and complexity, but isn't really needed in Saisons (can easily over power the delicate flavors). And if you want to add fruit then wait until a month or two from when the beer is "finished". And make sure to taste the beer before adding fruit and see what will work the best with flavors already present.

You can add Brett, but that will just give you Brett flavors (barnyard, fruity, cherry) depending on strain and help to dry out the beer. Also depending on the gravity may require you to age for a while to allow the slow Brett to work through the remaining sugars, opposed to the just using a sour mash and Saison yeast which could be done in a week.

I like Brett Saisons, but they are not sour. They might have a light tartness, but the main characteristics are a very dry beer with peppery spices mixed with tropical/funky Brett type flavors, which seems different than what you want.

bastump218 10-03-2012 06:47 PM

Thanks for the input I will defiantly be able to use some of your advice......with acid malt what percentage of the grist should it take up....will lacto bacteria eat up the acid malt sugars and make the beer sour

cardinalsfan 10-03-2012 06:56 PM

To get decent sourness from just acid malt it needs to be at least 10% of the grist. You'd prolly be better off doing a 15-25% sour mash and using that to sour the beer.

bastump218 10-03-2012 07:21 PM

I have read so many different things on sour mashes I am confused by rewarding too much.....any suggestions on a good easy way to make a sour mash

Almighty 10-04-2012 08:14 PM

There are so many different ways because people all have different systems. The main points of a sour mash:
Avoid Oxygen - #1 thing - Lacotbacillus does not need oxygen, but the nasty tasting ones do. So use plastic wrap or flush with CO2.
Keep Temperature between 100 - 120 - insulate or heat
Keep pH under 4.3 - use acid malt to adjust pH after you mash your grains

Or just make the beer regularly and add lacto from a vial (or build a starter with apple juice). Let the lacto get a head start and taste the beer daily, when it is to a level you want then pitch your Sacc. Make sure the Sacc is healthy (preferably at a full krausen in a starter) as it will need to deal with the low pH.

Aschecte 10-05-2012 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Almighty (Post 4466524)
Ok that helps a little bit.
The Brett will not sour the beer, you will need to add lactic bacteria - Lacto or pedio. You could also do a sour mash or add acid malt. I would suggest that you look into techniques for making Berliner Weiss and then pitch a Saison yeast instead of a clean ale yeast.

The choice to add oak or fruit is just based on flavor. Oak helps with mouthfeel and complexity, but isn't really needed in Saisons (can easily over power the delicate flavors). And if you want to add fruit then wait until a month or two from when the beer is "finished". And make sure to taste the beer before adding fruit and see what will work the best with flavors already present.

You can add Brett, but that will just give you Brett flavors (barnyard, fruity, cherry) depending on strain and help to dry out the beer. Also depending on the gravity may require you to age for a while to allow the slow Brett to work through the remaining sugars, opposed to the just using a sour mash and Saison yeast which could be done in a week.

I like Brett Saisons, but they are not sour. They might have a light tartness, but the main characteristics are a very dry beer with peppery spices mixed with tropical/funky Brett type flavors, which seems different than what you want.

With all due respect I need to disagree here. I have done a few brett saisons ( check out my signature ). Brett will absolutly sour a beer to a certain degree. Brett does produce acetic acid as well as lactic acid though only acetic under areobic conditions. Now that being said it produces less than either lactobacilus or pediococcus but it will be evident. Sour is a relative term and the pedio or lacto may be objectionable to brett may not be. Brett also contributes to aroma and can be anything from cherry pie-smokey poop. If I were brewing a saison which I have and wanted the spicy saison flavors to be there but with more complexity in flavor I would absolutely use Brett b and c co pitched in primary not secondary and I would leave it alone for around 8-10 months , remember brett will eat the autolyzed yeast as a nutrient after the sugars are all consumed. After that time consider fruit as you may find the brett has produced enough fruityness. Pick up wild brews by Jeff Sparrow it will cover all this in detail . Good luck !!!

Almighty 10-05-2012 09:17 PM

I was talking about using Brett in the context of the original post (secondary). And in my experience, I have not gotten much sourness from Brett when used in secondary of an already dry Saison. You can get some sourness from Brett when used in primary with plenty of oxygen, but as far as I have read it only produces acetic acid. And the level of sourness is also strain dependent. I have thought sometimes that the sourness I get from 100% Brett beers is more than just acetic acid, but everything I've read says that's all Brett can produce. Would you mind sharing where you have read about Brett producing lactic acid?


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