Happy HolidaySs Giveaway - Last Sponsor Giveaway of the Year!

Come Enter the BrewDeals/FastFerment Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Lambic & Wild Brewing > Flander's red aging
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-18-2013, 07:23 PM   #1
Tiroux
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Thurso, Québec
Posts: 466
Liked 9 Times on 7 Posts

Default Flander's red aging

Hey guys!

I'm about to brew a Flander's Red and here's my project, quickly:

A first 6 gallons batch, 3-4 months on the cake, then secondary for X
A second batch, pitched on the cake, 3-4 months on the cake, then secondary for X. I plan for about 18months total, so an 18m old with a 14-15 months old blend at bottling. The recipe will be exactly the same both time, at least I have to ajust something (undershot or overshot too much the OG, wich I plan at 1055). WLP Flemish Ale blend, by the way.

My question is about how to get the acetic/balsamic notes.
I might buy a 20L (5.25gal) new oak barrel. Do you think 12-18 months of barrel aging of half the batch would give me these notes?

Should I put the first/oldest part in the barrel or the second part (which should be more sour than the first due to high bacteria cell count)?

How would you treat the barrel before using it?
I was thinking:
-Water, water, water to extract oak flavor
-Cheap wine and vodka for the same reason
-Better red wine or maybe bourbon to continue extract oak flavor and impart milder flavors
-Use it to age a big beer or a red wine kit in it
-Turn into a Flander's Red barrel

what'cha think?

__________________
Tiroux is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-19-2013, 12:21 PM   #2
smokinghole
Senior Member
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
smokinghole's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lucid Dream Land
Posts: 2,913
Liked 122 Times on 101 Posts
Likes Given: 12

Default

Best way to get a little acetic or balsamic notes if you don't get it from fermentation is to add some balsamic vinegar at bottling. Sure it is kind of cheating, but rather than go through the trouble of the barrel and prep, why not just use your carboys? Then at bottling you can bend the batches and add balsamic to taste if you really want that flavor. You can go the barrel route which should certainly help with acetic acid development. If it doesn't enough then you always have the aceto de balsamico to play with.

__________________

Going through life is hard.
Going through life stupid is harder.

smokinghole is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-19-2013, 05:32 PM   #3
Tiroux
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Thurso, Québec
Posts: 466
Liked 9 Times on 7 Posts

Default

I would not take the trouble and time to brew a Flander's Red and fermented it for almost 2 years to end up putting vinegar in it... It's my point of view. But thanks for the tip anyway.

__________________
Tiroux is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-20-2013, 12:00 PM   #4
smokinghole
Senior Member
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
smokinghole's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lucid Dream Land
Posts: 2,913
Liked 122 Times on 101 Posts
Likes Given: 12

Default

Well other than intentional exposure to oxygen I've got nothing for you. What I told you is the most controllable way to produce what you want. Acetic acid is acetic acid, well as far as I am concerned in most cases. I don't care if it came from grape must, malt wort, or rice wine. As i am sure you know, the commercial producers blend for that flavor with many barrels and years of experience. You are working with two batches. So this is where a little rule bending is fine. I just consider my bottle of balsamic that I use for salad as my super acetic barrel. I used a few ounces in a 12 gal packaging session on my Flanders I brewed last year. Enough to get a flavor but not too much that you can pick out the acetic balsamic quality. To me its like saying I wont look at fake boobs because some chick wasn't born with them.

__________________

Going through life is hard.
Going through life stupid is harder.

smokinghole is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-20-2013, 04:37 PM   #5
Tiroux
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Thurso, Québec
Posts: 466
Liked 9 Times on 7 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokinghole View Post
Well other than intentional exposure to oxygen I've got nothing for you. What I told you is the most controllable way to produce what you want. Acetic acid is acetic acid, well as far as I am concerned in most cases. I don't care if it came from grape must, malt wort, or rice wine. As i am sure you know, the commercial producers blend for that flavor with many barrels and years of experience. You are working with two batches. So this is where a little rule bending is fine. I just consider my bottle of balsamic that I use for salad as my super acetic barrel. I used a few ounces in a 12 gal packaging session on my Flanders I brewed last year. Enough to get a flavor but not too much that you can pick out the acetic balsamic quality. To me its like saying I wont look at fake boobs because some chick wasn't born with them.
I didn't say it was a bad or cheap idea. I'm just saying it's not something I would do. I would prefer to have less of that acetic side than add vinegar. That's just my point of view. Again, nothing against your idea.

But still, sour mash and added lactic acid don't taste the same, when, theorically, it's the exact same lactic acid involved, so I don't know..!

You say: "Well other than intentional exposure to oxygen I've got nothing for you."

Well that's exactly why i'm using a long barrel aging. If I don't get much of acetic, well it's not the end of the world, I'm sure I'll have a nice oaky red sour.
__________________
Tiroux is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-20-2013, 04:43 PM   #6
Tiroux
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Thurso, Québec
Posts: 466
Liked 9 Times on 7 Posts

Default

Then, to go back to my question, which wasn't about barrel or not or vinegar or not: Any idea on what to put into the barrel?

I'll have a big 18%abv sweet sherry-mead (flor sherry in secondary) soon, maybe I could give it a go for a month in the barrel before the Flanders? Some residual honey and sherry flor can't be bad for the red I guess! And with that 18%abv it will suck a good amount of tannins.

__________________
Tiroux is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-21-2013, 09:30 PM   #7
inflictor-of-grimness
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 156
Liked 11 Times on 10 Posts

Default

Wouldn't using plastic fermentation containers get enough oxygen in there over that long period of time to get some acetic character? Maybe fermenting at least one portion in a bucket?

__________________
inflictor-of-grimness is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-23-2013, 05:41 AM   #8
ardyexfor
Feedback Score: 10 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Redmond, Oregon
Posts: 467
Liked 66 Times on 52 Posts
Likes Given: 27

Default

I am not sure exactly which beer/sour profile you are going for but, I have a flanders red that has been aging in a better bottle for six months that is straight up Rodenbach Grand Cru. I fermented with a primary pitch of Wyeast Roeselare and added commercial dreggs along the way. It is fantastic and I seriously cant imagine it getting much better but plan on letting it go for at least another six months anyways.

From what I've read a barrel of that size will let too much oxygen exposure over a long period, to a slightly lesser extent using a bucket, where as a glass carboy does not let in enough, and the better bottles are a good middle of the road? Speculation on this subject is easy to be found.

This post might not help your original questions, just food for thought...

__________________
ardyexfor is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-24-2013, 03:01 PM   #9
AmandaK
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: KCMO
Posts: 1,501
Liked 138 Times on 104 Posts
Likes Given: 24

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiroux View Post
Hey guys!
My question is about how to get the acetic/balsamic notes.
I might buy a 20L (5.25gal) new oak barrel. Do you think 12-18 months of barrel aging of half the batch would give me these notes?

what'cha think?
I think that using such a small (and brand new) barrel for that long would not give you what you want in terms of a Flanders Red. Using a small barrel increases the ratio of oak contact area to beer volume, which reduces the time needed for imparting the flavors of oak. Commercial outfits generally use at least 55-60 gallon barrels if not foundres which are 20-120 hectolitres in size (hectolitre = 100 litres). These larger barrels have a low enough oak contact/beer volume ratio to allow for extended periods of aging.

If you are stuck on the 20L barrel, I would definitely ferment something else in it first (red wine sounds like a good choice) to cut down on the huge amount of vanillin you will extract from it on the first go around. I would also recommend tasting often.

In my own brewery, I use a combination of a primary ferment in plastic (~1 month) and then aging in glass carboys. This is how I can limit the oxygen exposure, but get just enough to cause a small amount of acetic notes. I can add oak products in the secondary - and have had good luck with oak cubes.
__________________
BJCP National Beer Judge
On deck: German Pilsner, CAP, Golden Strong
Fermenting: MOVING
Souring: #32 Lambic 2.0, #49 Lambic 3.0, #60 3763 Flanders Brown, #61 WLP665 Flanders Brown
Conditioning: #38 Golden Sour, #58 Hooch Cider, #79 Dopplebock, #84 Amy Cider
Drinkin': #16 Lambic 1.0 (Drunk Monk BOS), #84 Fall Cider
AmandaK is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-25-2013, 04:00 PM   #10
Tiroux
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Thurso, Québec
Posts: 466
Liked 9 Times on 7 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmandaK View Post
I think that using such a small (and brand new) barrel for that long would not give you what you want in terms of a Flanders Red. Using a small barrel increases the ratio of oak contact area to beer volume, which reduces the time needed for imparting the flavors of oak. Commercial outfits generally use at least 55-60 gallon barrels if not foundres which are 20-120 hectolitres in size (hectolitre = 100 litres). These larger barrels have a low enough oak contact/beer volume ratio to allow for extended periods of aging.

If you are stuck on the 20L barrel, I would definitely ferment something else in it first (red wine sounds like a good choice) to cut down on the huge amount of vanillin you will extract from it on the first go around. I would also recommend tasting often.

In my own brewery, I use a combination of a primary ferment in plastic (~1 month) and then aging in glass carboys. This is how I can limit the oxygen exposure, but get just enough to cause a small amount of acetic notes. I can add oak products in the secondary - and have had good luck with oak cubes.
I ferment exclusively in glass, so I will have to get some oxygen exposure at some point... I will have to think about all that...

Other thing... Should I leave the beer on the primary cake for the whole aging?
__________________
Tiroux is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply



Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My 1st Sour - 10 Gallon Flander's Red (03/03/12) angeleazy Lambic & Wild Brewing 11 07-09-2013 06:55 AM
Advice on Flander's red flyingfinbar Recipes/Ingredients 2 05-25-2013 06:56 PM
Thin Flander's Red WorryWort General Beer Discussion 4 12-08-2009 10:18 PM
Flander's Brown Ale from AHS Gritsak Extract Brewing 3 09-30-2009 05:32 PM
Flander's brown bhatchable Lambic & Wild Brewing 6 08-23-2009 03:57 AM



Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS