New Giveaway - Wort Monster Conical Fermenter!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Lambic & Wild Brewing > First Funk, thoughts?




Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-16-2012, 01:37 PM   #1
El_Exorcisto
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Herkimer, NY
Posts: 417
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts

Default First Funk, thoughts?

So I'm brewing my first funky beer later this week. After reading some stuff over at The Mad Fermentationist I'm going to use BM45 wine yeast to develop the jam flavors and leave a good amount of residual sugar for the bugs to use. I'm going so let that run until primary fermentation is wrapping up, then rack it to secondary. Here's where it'll get a little different.

I am going to be using a bacteria slurry from my father's grain fermentation bucket which has become a primordial soup of various souring microbes and wild yeasts. He ferments dry corn and barley to feed his chickens since it improves digestibility and nutrition. The soup smells like bread and pineapple juice, with a little whiff of butter.

Along with the wild soup I am going to pitch Wyeast brettanomyces lambicus, just in case there isn't a brett species in the slurry so I don't end up with diacetyl bombs due to the pedio that I'm pretty sure is in there.

After this monstrosity ferments out for a few months I'll rack off a gallon into a glass carboy as a control and to free up space for 5 lbs of wild blueberries I picked over the summer. I'll let that run wild as long as it wants too then bottle. I'll also float a small chunk of white oak in the main secondary as a mother culture for my next funk and to give the brett some cellobiose to much on.

Should I go with a traditional lambic grain bill of 6lbs pale malt and 3 lbs of flaked wheat? Should I make it a funky brown and just use munich as my base malt? Crystal seems kind of pointless since the bugs will have a pile of residual sugars after the wine yeast wraps up. I don't have lambic hops, so should I just boil an ounce of crystals for 30 minutes? Just mash hop ala Berliner? Should I boil at all, or should I keep the lacto alive that's in a non-boiled wort to add additional bugs? SO many questions...



__________________

On Deck: Saison "Jardin d'été" (3rd Gen 3711, Wild bugs, Pale ale malt, wheat, Willamette dry hop)
Primary: Saison "Vomissure de Grenouille" (2nd Gen 3711 from dregs, Pale Ale malt, Crystals and Willamettes)
Secondary: BM45/Spontaneous Bugs Experiment (down to 1.004, and tastes awesome), contemplating what fruit to add.

El_Exorcisto is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-16-2012, 02:04 PM   #2
ryane
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 779
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts

Default

lots of questions

Malt bill - up to you, me, I would make both a lambic and a Red/brown

Hops - No need for aged hops, just use a low AA hop and bitter to ~10ibu

Slurry - you might toss it in a small "starter" to see how it ferments wort first and see if you get any nasty off flavors, the butter you smell is most likely diacetyl and adding the lambicus should help to clean that up in the end

Blueberries - I would suggest against deciding in advance what fruit to add, let the beer tell you what would mesh well with it, wait at least 6mos or so and taste it, then decide what fruit to get ahold of



ryane is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-16-2012, 05:58 PM   #3
El_Exorcisto
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Herkimer, NY
Posts: 417
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts

Default

Thee doesn't appear to be any sacch yeast in the slurry, so I can;t really try a starter of it since there is no alcohol to keep evil things at bay. I figured the butter was diacetyl, so needed to make sure I added a commercial brett pitch to clean up.

The blueberries are the only fresh fruit I still have put up from the summer. It just feels off to use commercial fruit when I am trying for a feeling of terroir in the beer using local bugs. If it doesn't seem like it would mesh with blueberry, I guess it'll just stay unfruited.

__________________

On Deck: Saison "Jardin d'été" (3rd Gen 3711, Wild bugs, Pale ale malt, wheat, Willamette dry hop)
Primary: Saison "Vomissure de Grenouille" (2nd Gen 3711 from dregs, Pale Ale malt, Crystals and Willamettes)
Secondary: BM45/Spontaneous Bugs Experiment (down to 1.004, and tastes awesome), contemplating what fruit to add.

El_Exorcisto is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-17-2012, 02:45 PM   #4
Oldsock
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: DC, Washington DC
Posts: 2,977
Liked 110 Times on 81 Posts
Likes Given: 42

Default

The BM45 sour red is still aging, but the last sample I had a couple months ago was less than promising. Sort of a weird yeasty flavor to it, still young though, so hopefully it will turn the corner over the next few months.

__________________

Check out The Mad Fermentationist for my adventures in fermentation (cheese, bread, ginger beer plant, and of course plenty of funky beer).

Oldsock is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-17-2012, 11:29 PM   #5
El_Exorcisto
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Herkimer, NY
Posts: 417
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts

Default

How far in was it at tasting, Oldsock? Did you get those coveted jam-like flavors in the base beer? Had you ever tasted the off flavor in any other sours or do you attribute it just to the BM45?

__________________

On Deck: Saison "Jardin d'été" (3rd Gen 3711, Wild bugs, Pale ale malt, wheat, Willamette dry hop)
Primary: Saison "Vomissure de Grenouille" (2nd Gen 3711 from dregs, Pale Ale malt, Crystals and Willamettes)
Secondary: BM45/Spontaneous Bugs Experiment (down to 1.004, and tastes awesome), contemplating what fruit to add.

El_Exorcisto is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-18-2012, 12:55 PM   #6
Oldsock
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: DC, Washington DC
Posts: 2,977
Liked 110 Times on 81 Posts
Likes Given: 42

Default

Brewed in June, tasted it in December, so it is only 5 months in. When it was young it certainly had some complex berry type flavors. Hard to say exactly what is going on, I've had several sour beers taste off during fermentation, only to come around eventually (although I’ve never had this exact flavor that I recall). I am worried that the kill factor produced by the BM45 is causing a high level of autolysis in the brewer’s yeast.

This one may come around eventually, but it just strikes me as a risky way to brew your first funky/sour beer

__________________

Check out The Mad Fermentationist for my adventures in fermentation (cheese, bread, ginger beer plant, and of course plenty of funky beer).

Oldsock is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-18-2012, 02:30 PM   #7
Homebrewtastic
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 1,044
Liked 24 Times on 21 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Oldsock.

I'm thinking of doing the same type of brew for one of my sours this year.

If you think autolysis is the culprit in your off flavor would it be a good idea to...

Start fermentation on an ale yeast to ferment out maltriose, rack off of the yeast inside of 2-3 days, leaving behind as many rafts as possible. Then pitch the wine yeast and the souring blends together?

Or would it just make more sense to pitch pedio, lacto, wine yeast and Brett and just make sure no ale yeast is getting into it?

__________________
On Deck:
Primary: Lambic-ish
Kegged: Das Funken Weisse, Un Poquito Wylde
Bottled: Epik Barleywine, Chocolate Chili Pumpkin Porter, EKG Amber
Adventures in Zymurgy - Homebrewing and Sour Beer Blog
Homebrewtastic is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-18-2012, 05:05 PM   #8
Oldsock
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: DC, Washington DC
Posts: 2,977
Liked 110 Times on 81 Posts
Likes Given: 42

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homebrewtastic View Post
Oldsock.

I'm thinking of doing the same type of brew for one of my sours this year.

If you think autolysis is the culprit in your off flavor would it be a good idea to...

Start fermentation on an ale yeast to ferment out maltriose, rack off of the yeast inside of 2-3 days, leaving behind as many rafts as possible. Then pitch the wine yeast and the souring blends together?

Or would it just make more sense to pitch pedio, lacto, wine yeast and Brett and just make sure no ale yeast is getting into it?
I think skipping the brewer's yeast entirely would be the way to go, even clear beer can have 100,000 cells per ml. THe Brett will take care of any sugars the wine yeast does not.

If I remember i'll pull a sample tonight to let everyone know how it is going.
__________________

Check out The Mad Fermentationist for my adventures in fermentation (cheese, bread, ginger beer plant, and of course plenty of funky beer).

Oldsock is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-18-2012, 10:23 PM   #9
Homebrewtastic
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 1,044
Liked 24 Times on 21 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldsock

I think skipping the brewer's yeast entirely would be the way to go, even clear beer can have 100,000 cells per ml. THe Brett will take care of any sugars the wine yeast does not.

If I remember i'll pull a sample tonight to let everyone know how it is going.
So that being said what Brett strains do you think would compliment the bm45? I wouldn't think Brett L with the smoky horsey flavors. So A. B. or C?

Also thinking about it that wine yeast would allow for more Brett flavor to come through as the Brett would have more sugars to eat.
__________________
On Deck:
Primary: Lambic-ish
Kegged: Das Funken Weisse, Un Poquito Wylde
Bottled: Epik Barleywine, Chocolate Chili Pumpkin Porter, EKG Amber
Adventures in Zymurgy - Homebrewing and Sour Beer Blog
Homebrewtastic is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-19-2012, 03:39 AM   #10
El_Exorcisto
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Herkimer, NY
Posts: 417
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts

Default

Homebrewtastic, that was the original intent in using the wine yeast, to leave behind more residual sugars for the bugs to consume.

I'm actually going to skip the Brett L that I bought and just go with the zoo of microbes in the grain fermentation. It smells amazing right now and just gets better by the day. Pineapple has given way to guava and mango with the butter (I'm assuming diacetyl) already starting to fade. It is in an open bucket so the bugs have access to as much O2 as needed which is probably why it is changing so fast and so often.

I think I'll stick with BM45 as my primary yeast. The theory behind it seems sound. As for risk in using my local bugs, well, you're probably right. Luckily it'll only be about $8 down the tubes if it goes wrong. On the other hand though, if I get half the character in the beer as the grain fermenter has, I'll have something way beyond any expectations, and maybe some new bugs to share that no one has ever intentionally worked with.



__________________

On Deck: Saison "Jardin d'été" (3rd Gen 3711, Wild bugs, Pale ale malt, wheat, Willamette dry hop)
Primary: Saison "Vomissure de Grenouille" (2nd Gen 3711 from dregs, Pale Ale malt, Crystals and Willamettes)
Secondary: BM45/Spontaneous Bugs Experiment (down to 1.004, and tastes awesome), contemplating what fruit to add.

El_Exorcisto is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Help a funk newb Bensiff Lambic & Wild Brewing 6 12-30-2010 07:51 PM
sour without (too much) funk JLem Lambic & Wild Brewing 6 10-24-2010 07:23 PM
My funk Mosa Lambic & Wild Brewing 5 04-30-2010 07:56 PM
starter for a funk blend killian Lambic & Wild Brewing 2 04-15-2009 05:31 PM
Funk starters Bokonon Lambic & Wild Brewing 3 03-11-2009 06:08 PM



Newest Threads