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Old 01-24-2010, 07:32 PM   #21
Sixbillionethans
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Updated OP with final tasting notes, and some final lessons-learned.



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Old 01-25-2010, 03:29 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixbillionethans View Post
There is no alcohol, only lactic acid.

I've seen confusion about this before (on one of the Berliner Weiss threads) where people think you can make alcohol using Lactobacillus. Remember, it's a bacteria, not a yeast.

Read the section of Wild Brews where he talks about Lactobacillus. That chapter was influential for me because I learned what each specific organism did. People lump together "bugs" and don't fully understand what each one does.
Many forms of Lactobacillus can produce alcohol. Bacteria/Fungus doesn't have much to do with it. The specific species of lacto that we use for beer is actually more of an exception to the rule in that it produces solely lactic acid and is incapable of producing alcohol.

Very good log, thanks for the well documented experience.


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Old 01-25-2010, 10:05 PM   #23
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Many forms of Lactobacillus can produce alcohol. Bacteria/Fungus doesn't have much to do with it. The specific species of lacto that we use for beer is actually more of an exception to the rule in that it produces solely lactic acid and is incapable of producing alcohol.
Wow, thanks, I didn't know that part. Good correction.

So L. delbrueckii, the "pure" strain homebrewers can buy , is homofermentative (produces only lactic acid).

However, if someone did a sour mash, there could potentially be other strains of lactobacillus (i.e. L. brevis) present, which could produce alcohol?
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Old 01-26-2010, 02:36 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Sixbillionethans View Post
Wow, thanks, I didn't know that part. Good correction.

So L. delbrueckii, the "pure" strain homebrewers can buy , is homofermentative (produces only lactic acid).

However, if someone did a sour mash, there could potentially be other strains of lactobacillus (i.e. L. brevis) present, which could produce alcohol?
yes, but the production of alcohol by lacto is pretty small, especially in comparison to sacch
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Old 01-30-2010, 05:39 AM   #25
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The All-Brett L batch I did lacked the complexity I was expecting, so I added Brett B in the secondary. Brett L *does* seem to ferment very fast in general as a primary yeast. Brett C is definitely the slowest.

Did you notice any reduction in sourness as this batch has progressed? My all-Brett L pulled some transformation magic on the acid in mine and removed the tartness completely after a few weeks.

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Old 01-08-2013, 05:10 AM   #26
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Reviving this thread. I have a local brew club competition in May and the category is Sours. Obviously my time is somewhat limited and, to top it off, I only make bottle conditioned beers (don't have the capability to keg yet). Thus, I'm trying to pull this off as fast as I can. Will proceed with souring 100% of the wort with a 100% Brett L fermentation.

My recipe below for a 5 gallon batch:
4.25 lbs Vienna
3.75 lbs Pilsner
2.5 lb Light Munich
.5 lbs Wheat
.5 lbs Special B
.5 lbs Caramunich
.5 lbs Aromatic

OG -->1.062

1 oz of East Kent Goldings for 60 minutes for about 15 Ibu's

Yesterday I did the mash and brought the wort to a boil. I cooled it down to about 90 degrees and pitched the Lactobacillus WLP677. I covered up the kettle nicely with the lid and sealed it with tin foil. Will let it sit for 5 -6 days to let it sour up. The ambient temp here in Long Beach right now is about 60-65 degrees so I figure it's going to proceed slowly. .

In the interim, I have been getting a starter going. 3L have been sitting on a stir plate for about two weeks now with some WLP653. The brett L seems to take forever. At this point I believe it's mostly attentuated, so I decanted the extra liquid and poured another 3 liters of starter fluid on it. I'll let it go as far as I can before I have to pitch, but I figured I'm gonna need a big starter.

This coming Saturday I'll do the boil with the sour wort to denature the bacteria and add the hops, then cool it down and pitch the brett.

This all seems straightforward enough, but I have a few questions:
1.Will the long time (5 days) or cooler temps that I allow the lactobacillus to interact with the wort produce any off flavors?
2. Will a 60 minute boil reduce any of the sourness?
3.What temp should I ferment the brett at during primary? 75? I'm figuring I'm gonna need a heating blanket or something. It's an odd experience because I'm normally always trying to keep the temps cool for my beers during fermentation.
4.Any ideas on what I could potentially add to the beer to give it some of the complexity lost by not aging with the bugs?
5.What final gravity should I aim for to avoid bottle bombs? 1.008? Whats the best way to achieve this in the shortest amount of time....just warmer temps? I mashed at 148 degrees in an effort to produce as a dry a beer as possible both to minimize the risk of bottle bombs and bring out the tartness. But, this is my first brett beer and I've read it can take quite a while to fully attenuate (as I have seen from the starter).

As always, any advice is much appreciated. I'll keep everyone posted as to how this goes. I'm excited

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Old 01-12-2013, 04:56 PM   #27
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After one week - I tried the wort and it doesn't really taste all that sour. Gonna let the wort go one more week. Ive it sealed up fairly well - should it have access to at least a little bit of oxygen?

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Old 01-12-2013, 07:44 PM   #28
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Quote:
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After one week - I tried the wort and it doesn't really taste all that sour. Gonna let the wort go one more week. Ive it sealed up fairly well - should it have access to at least a little bit of oxygen?
I'm not sure what the stated cell counts are from White Labs for their bacteria, but *I think* one pack from Wyeast is ~100M, which would be ~1M per ML in 5gal. I've been researching the same method you're using now and the info I can find shows a pitch rate of closer to ~10M per ML for the lacto period of the fermentation is closer to optimal based on the tests that WY did (at least for their strain) That coupled with the fact that you're on the very low end of the temp range would tend to dictate that things will be really slow going. Lacto doesn't need O2 to reproduce, but a little bit won't hurt. However, too much might speed up the growth of other organisms you don't want to take hold. Can you warm things up and hold the temps?
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Old 01-12-2013, 08:05 PM   #29
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http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/13867448
Cool vid on the subject

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Old 01-12-2013, 09:32 PM   #30
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You are making a Berliner Weisse.

I hope the hops are going in the boil after the souring. If they are already in there, they can stop the Lacto from working. Lacto doesn't like hops.

Lacto doesn't like O2, so keep it to a minimum.

Lacto likes to be warm. You could be too cool for it to work. Get a heating blanket on it. You want to be somewhere around 100 F (I do mine at 90 because that is what my heater can get to). Once the lacto gets going, it will only take about a day to completely sour in ideal conditions.

Once the PH goes down, that will protect the wort.

Since you are just using Brett as a primary yeast, it will be done in a few weeks. The Brett will work just like sacc (maybe a little slower, but generally a similar timeline).



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