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-   -   Double Flanders? (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/double-flanders-368889/)

FoundationFunkwerks 11-20-2012 12:43 AM

Double Flanders?
...any advice?
I'm thinking of doing 5-10 batches in the next 3 years. (Blending to follow...) I'm fairly experienced in practical non brett brewing. That being said, I'm new to bugs, but have a huge resource in information to withdraw from.

I'm wondering, have any of you tried a true "Burgundie of Belgium?" Blended or strait.

The goal is to shoot for some wine like characteristics, but stay true to the Flanders Red Ale flavor.
Mainly 10% or more ABV.

...I know using brett above 6-7% has and is being done.
I just want to keep myself inline before I whip up a 1.100 OG dud.
Cheers, Mates!

TNGabe 11-20-2012 09:06 AM

Have you had any De Dolle beers? Oerbier is a sour red around 9% and the Oerbier Reserva is barrel aged and over 12% (if you can find it and then force your wallet open to pay over $1/oz). Both put the awe in awesome.

Good luck!

Adamski 11-20-2012 10:53 AM

Only trouble you face is that the bacteria's really struggle when the alc% gets that high. They basically struggle to do their work at the strength's of Oud Bruin's. You wouldn't get much sour Flanders character with a beer that big unless you pre-soured the wort before main Sacc/Brett fermentation.

FoundationFunkwerks 11-20-2012 02:46 PM

That's the info I was forgetting, the higher ABV, hindering the brett's job.
I thinking of doing a batch every 3 months. (4 a year.) For a blending to be done in 3 years.
So in that time I will have
-4 3year old's
-4 2year old's
-2 1/2year
-2 fairly fresh
So I could blend 'em the way the "pro's" do.

Sit on the blend for 6 ish months (add fruit / wood / herbs / etc.)
Then bottle.
Each batch would vary the yeast strains ( I can think of 8-10 yeast strains off the top of my head from Wy, and WLP)
...and keep a fairly consistent recipe.

2Row Dexatrene base
10% Flaked Maze
10% Unmalted wheat
8% Special B
5% Corn Suger
(maybe a little something else?...)
One addition of a whole leaf hop (90 min boil) mild, very low AA, not American citrus kind...

I'm liking this already!!!!

bradjoiner 11-20-2012 08:35 PM

1.100 og would end you up with a beer much closer to 12% abv I would shoot closer to 1.085 og

smokinghole 11-20-2012 09:38 PM

Depending on the level of crystal malts (if you want residual sweetness and body you need a lot) 1.080 should net you a 10% beer with out a sweat. The trick to ensuring sourness would be to pitch bacteria first and get the beer warm for 3-5 days. Then you can pitch the remainder of the culture. So if I were you I'd buy pedio separate or if you have the lab skills/resources just isolate the culture's bacteria on your own. This is how I did my 10% oud bruin and it's sour but not in your face sour.

FoundationFunkwerks 11-21-2012 12:33 AM

I know 1.100 would get me around 12%. I'd love to shoot for 15% but in a basement homebrew set up, it would be difficult. (Let alone getting some true to style sourness out of that kind of ABV.)

Thanks @smokinghole, I'm planning on doing a variety of brews (IE WLP Amer. Farmhouse, Flemish Ale Blend, Belgian Sour Mix 1, Wy's Roeselare would be lower gravity 5-6% with strait pitching.)

Then make some higher gravity batches using your method. (Blend in 3 years, as per plan.)

Adamski 11-21-2012 10:41 AM


Originally Posted by FoundationFunkwerks (Post 4606364)
That's the info I was forgetting, the higher ABV, hindering the brett's job.

Brett is a yeast and isn't as alcohol sensitive as souring bacteria (Lacto/Pedio). Look at Crooked Stave, Chad knocked out a 10% Baltic Porter with 100% Brett fermentation. No issues with gravity for Brett, it'll chew through it and due to the low finishing gravity you don't have to go as high with SG to get the alc. Remember the beer will probably finish at 1.010 or under. Adding bacteria first before any alcohol is produced is the best way to go to control the level of sourness. Chucking all the cultures in at once will end up with one result and that one only. You need only look at fermenting a Berliner Weisse with lacto first and then an ale strain compared to pitching both together.

Almighty 11-21-2012 06:05 PM

I've done a 1.085 O.G. Flanders Red with the Roeselare blend. It soured up nicely, the same as my 1.060 version. It also finished around 1.015 and had a very vinous quality. After 1.5 yrs I bottled half straight and added a lb of elderberries to the other half for 2 months. They are currently carbing up- so I can't wait to try them.

My recipe is here (the Super Flanders was just the first runnings diluted to 1.085)

Calder 11-22-2012 03:52 AM

Brett is ok up to about 18%. However, it doesn't sour.

Lacto and pedio are ok to about 8%, although there seems to be strains that can go higher.

Lacto hates hops. Anything above zero (some say 10 IBUs) will inhibit growth.

You want to make a strong sour. I'd suggest:
a zero hop wort with lacto kept at 100 F for about 5 days. That should decently sour the wort. kept at 100 F

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