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Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Lambic & Wild Brewing > color change after bottling
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:31 PM   #41
killsurfcity
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heh heh!

pardon my annoyance, but i'm pretty tired of lazy answers at this point.

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Old 04-09-2013, 07:05 PM   #42
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What is the argument that it's not oxidation that so definitively rules it out and why is it most likely some non-oxidative chemical reaction, whatever that means?

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Old 04-09-2013, 10:42 PM   #43
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what's the argument that it is? if it was oxidation it'd be a common problem. unless there's some science i'm unaware of that you could enlighten me about.

1) i have yet to hear any evidence that makes a reasonable argument that oxidation could cause a color change.

2) loads of people clean with oxi and sanitize with star san, and probably many splash **** all over while doing so. if THAT was the cause of this color change there would be 1000 threads about it.

3) in my case the chance this beer in particular is oxidized is slim to none. it was racked carefully, and wasn't really touch or moved for six months after.

4) i tend to believe what Revvy says here. i'd love to find the research, but it follows what's been my general experience...

Quote:
It takes a lot of splashing to do any damage, someone on basic brewing years ago, (Palmer, or Chris Colby of BYO) said that in order to truly provide enough O2 to oxydize our beers it would take pumping an entire one of our red oxygen bottle/airstones into our beer AFTER fermentation is complete.

Most of the splashing intentional or accidental that we do in the course of our brewing will not harm it...

That doesn't mean you want to dump your carboy into the bottling bucket, or do other careless things. You still want to be gentle when moving your beer from vessel to vessel.

BUT it does mean that if we spalsh, or have to use our autosiphon to pump our beer is something goes wrong, that we don't need to panic about it.

I've had all sorts of problems, like bottling a blond ale with peaches in it,that kept jamming the bottling wand and auto siphon, and the beer's still turned out just fine.

And beside Oxygenation damage isn't immediate anyway, most of us would have our beer drunk long before it would happen.
I had some major f-ups with bottling on occasion and still haven't oxydized a batch.
5) The flavor we had in our beer are completely different from those of an oxidized beer... From the Homebrew Association website:

Quote:
The Flavors of Oxidation
The majority of the stale flavors that develop as beer ages are the result of oxidation. Molecules of the various flavor compounds and alcohols within the beer undergo a chemical reaction with oxygen to form the molecules responsible for the stale taste. Fusel alcohols, acetaldehyde, and trans-2-nonenal are the primary culprits responsible for the majority of off-flavors associated with stale, oxidized beer, but other compounds also contribute.
The specific way in which oxidation impacts the flavor and aroma of beer depends on many details specific to the particular type of beer that is experiencing oxidation. If trans-2-nonenal is formed in a lighter beer, it may cause a papery or lipstick-like flavor. Trans-2-nonenal (an aldehyde compound) has a flavor threshold of about 0.1 ppb. The aroma characteristics of many lighter beers can also be affected by oxidation. The malt character initially present in the aroma of a fresh beer may change in a way that causes the aroma to be perceived as somewhat “honey-like.” This is due to the formation of 2,3-pentanedione. While this may not necessarily be unpleasant, it is probably not what the brewer originally intended.
Darker, fuller-bodied beers tend to be affected differently by oxidation. As a darker, fuller-bodied beer becomes oxidized, rich malt flavors and aromas are replaced by sweeter, sherry-like flavors. These sherry-like flavors are the result of the oxidation of the malty-tasting chemicals in beer called melanoidins. Darker, fuller-bodied beers contain lots of melanoidins. The oxidation products of melanoidins are myriad and have a wide range of flavors. One of the products of the oxidation of melanoidins is benzaldehyde. Benzaldehyde has an almond-like flavor and is a primary contributor to the sherry-like flavor in oxidized beer. A small amount of these sherry-like flavors may add complexity to the flavor and aroma of certain strong beer styles like dark Belgian ales and barleywines, but even a small amount of these sherry-like flavors is usually not considered appropriate in lighter, lower alcohol beers. Even in darker, fuller-bodied beers, too much oxidation of the malt melanoidins will eventually cause the original rich malt flavor of the beer to take on a more toffee-like taste, and then, eventually, to be lost altogether.
Another flavor that may be caused by oxidation is the buttery/butterscotch flavor of diacetyl. Diacetyl is formed by the oxidation of alpha acetolactate (a normal by-product of yeast metabolism). Many breweries use brewing techniques to prevent the presence of the alpha acetolactate precursor in the finished beer, but some breweries use techniques that allow this precursor to be present. If alpha acetolactate is present in the finished beer, it will eventually oxidize to diacetyl, and the intensity of the characteristic buttery/butterscotch flavor will increase as the beer ages.
personally, i think most of the time when people on here say they have oxidation, they really have infected beer. first of all, it's not like these diagnosis are scientific. people read about this ****, **** up a beer, and then go... "my beer got oxidized". that's completely meaningless.

i'm also pretty familiar with oxidized flavors, from drinking very old beer, sherry, madeira. oxidation is a wonderful flavor when it's where it should be. THIS, this is another animal entirely.
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Old 04-09-2013, 11:56 PM   #44
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I don't remember the specific chemistry of oxidation darkening in beer (probably polyphenols), but every brewing textbook and professional article on the topic mentions it. Try looking up articles by Charles Bamforth.

Oxidation darkens stuff, for example wood, or cut fruits and vegetables (though that is accelerated by enzymes).

I don't know that it is oxidation but here's what I see from the descriptions: darkening, dull papery flavor, happens following bottling.

What is your source of water? Metal ions like iron can catalyze oxidation reactions, that may explain why it happens so rapidly.

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Old 04-10-2013, 12:13 AM   #45
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i'd like to see any of those articles.

oxidation darkens stuff, may be generally true, but it's hardly useful here beyond being mildly interesting without some evidence of some kind.

this wasn't dull papery flavor, you may want to look at the descriptions again. and it didn't happen to us after bottling. it was after racking.

the water is rural well water. it's pretty damn good water actually. and if it was the water, it would have happens the 100 other times we've done this exact same thing.

i wish i had some photos of our beers, the darkening was so dramatic. straw golden to **** brown in 2 days...

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Old 04-10-2013, 01:53 PM   #46
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I had the same issue with a batch of White IPA I dry hopped with a large dose of Galaxy hops. The yeast used was WLP585 Saison III and was bottled within a month of brewing. I bottled 12 bottles of the White IPA plain. The rest of the batch was put into champagne bottles with Brett B. The clean version is the purple murky version. The Brett B version is a perfect Witbier color.

Here is the variable: I used 12 oz bottles from my stash that were cleaned in Oxiclean Free. The champagne bottles were used as is from the local homebrew store.

StarSan is my choice in sanitizer, which is always mixed with distilled water.

To further muck up the waters, I just recently bottled a Belgian Blonde that used bottles from my stash that were cleaned in Oxiclean Free and it is a perfect BJCP blonde color.

Seriously, what is going on?

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Old 04-10-2013, 02:59 PM   #47
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blackjaw, no chance that sunlight got to some (I have no idea why that would make a difference).....what about temperature swings, anything possible there? there is a possible variable here that can't be measured easily, and that is that these sanitizing compounds effect the ph of the water they're contained in. I wonder if rather than an oxidation-type effect we are seeing a ph effect of the sanitizing residue?

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Old 04-10-2013, 03:48 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cageybee View Post
blackjaw, no chance that sunlight got to some (I have no idea why that would make a difference).....what about temperature swings, anything possible there? there is a possible variable here that can't be measured easily, and that is that these sanitizing compounds effect the ph of the water they're contained in. I wonder if rather than an oxidation-type effect we are seeing a ph effect of the sanitizing residue?
Nope, sunlight is not an issue. Also, my basement temps are pretty steady and really only shift a degree or two on unusual weather phenomenon during the winter. I wish I could remember if I conditioned these at 72° in my ferm chamber for a week or so, but I don't see anything in my notes.

I am not super knowledgeable in StarSan pH, but my understanding is that when you use distilled water, it takes it quite some time to get out of balance. I don't have strips to test it, not that it matters now, because I just made a fresh batch. It is always crystal clear when I use it and I typically make a new batch every 3 months, but this depends on how much brewing I am doing. Sometimes it is less than 3 months.

I do plan on getting a bottle rinsing apparatus soon. Right now I do a double shaking rinse with hot water when I take bottles out of Oxiclean bath. I have new bottles coming into my supply constantly and lose bottles frequently to friends and family.

I also plan on mixing some TSP substitute into my Oxiclean Free, just haven't found a definitive answer yet on a good ratio.
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:37 PM   #49
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If I can find my ph meter, I'll do some tests...but I don't have any oxyclean so I can't test that right away.

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Old 04-10-2013, 10:02 PM   #50
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oh, did you use a bottle filling rod, and if so...how do you clean/sanitize that?

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