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Old 04-30-2014, 03:15 PM   #11
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This won't satisfy the requests for a scientific source, but both Vinnie and Jamil have unequivocally stated that one must use Brett with Pedio in order to get rid of Pedio's diacetyl. I trust these guys' opinion on yeast and sour beer fermentation.

The real proof of sorts, for me, is that there are no beers that contain Pedio they do not also have Brett. Why are there no Sacch + Pedio (only) beers? There are Sacch + Lacto beers...


What is your source for this statement? Or maybe you have experienced this? I was under the impression that in the short term, Pedio will overwhelm the yeasts but given enough time Brett will clean it up.
You're right, anecdotally it seems to be true but I can't find public research backing up the phenomenon.

I was taught in a brewing class that Saccharomyces has a maximum concentration of diacetyl that it is able to clean up, but I don't think I was provided an exact amount. Furthermore, I can't find this information in any brewing books or Pubmed. Hmm.
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Old 04-30-2014, 05:15 PM   #12
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Here is a recent study, where up to 50 mg/L diacetyl (about 50 times what is a typical peak concentration of 'total diacetyl' (alpha-acetolactate + free diacetyl) in wort during fermentations with Saccharomyces) was supplemented to grape must prior to pitching of yeast. As you can see from Figure 1, despite the high initial concentrations of diacetyl, it was rapidly reduced during fermentation. It is interesting though that the final diacetyl concentration in the wine produced from the supplemented must (~2 ppm) was quite a lot higher than the control must (~0.4 ppm).

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jib.106/abstract

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Old 04-30-2014, 05:31 PM   #13
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Here is a recent study, where up to 50 mg/L diacetyl (about 50 times what is a typical peak concentration of 'total diacetyl' (alpha-acetolactate + free diacetyl) in wort during fermentations with Saccharomyces) was supplemented to grape must prior to pitching of yeast. As you can see from Figure 1, despite the high initial concentrations of diacetyl, it was rapidly reduced during fermentation. It is interesting though that the final diacetyl concentration in the wine produced from the supplemented must (~2 ppm) was quite a lot higher than the control must (~0.4 ppm).

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jib.106/abstract
Wonderful find, suregork. I think that fact that there is SOME research on this is good. Thanks for sharing!

I have always been of the opinion Saccharomyces could likely clean up copious amounts of diacetyl, as I have used Pedio without Brett and the beer was great, no butter. It was a Pale Ale I soured, and since the IBU were a little higher I tossed in Pedio AND Lacto in hopes it would still sour. I primaried with trusty 1056. A word of caution on my anecdotal evidence though, Pedio may have not created that much to begin with and even if it did and the Sacch cleaned it up, it may be strain dependent as I theorized earlier.
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Old 04-30-2014, 06:55 PM   #14
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as I have used Pedio without Brett and the beer was great, no butter.
aha! we've found one!
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:44 PM   #15
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Quote:
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Here is a recent study, where up to 50 mg/L diacetyl (about 50 times what is a typical peak concentration of 'total diacetyl' (alpha-acetolactate + free diacetyl) in wort during fermentations with Saccharomyces) was supplemented to grape must prior to pitching of yeast. As you can see from Figure 1, despite the high initial concentrations of diacetyl, it was rapidly reduced during fermentation. It is interesting though that the final diacetyl concentration in the wine produced from the supplemented must (~2 ppm) was quite a lot higher than the control must (~0.4 ppm).

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jib.106/abstract
Awesome find! Coauthored by a former advisor of mine even.
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Old 05-12-2014, 12:53 PM   #16
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Can you please link to the source of the info? I believe you, just want to get more information!
You will have numerous talks and hits with a google search on that topic
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Old 05-12-2014, 12:57 PM   #17
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Thanks so much for posting this! If anyone has any questions about the scientific methods used, I'd be happy to try to answer.

Interesting that Brett doesn't really show up in big numbers until 6 months into fermentation. It's also interesting that Pediococcus damnosus is so prevalent - this species has its name because of the excessive amount of diacetyl it is capable of producing. I'm wondering if other species in the ferment are able to reduce or take up the diacetyl in a more efficient manner than Saccharomyces - I don't think many people complain about diacetyl in Cantillon beers.
Brett's pretty slow growing, what makes more of a surprise to me is the large amount of lager yeast
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Old 05-12-2014, 01:16 PM   #18
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My friend and I just returned from a 2 week Euro beer tour which included the zythos festival in Leuven and Night of the great thrist south of Brussells. During our visit we went to the Cantillon brewery and got to talk to the owner/brewmaster. He has good news as he is getting another building down the street to store,(lager), his wooden barrels in. The reason he can only brew so much is he runs out of space for the barrels. Now he will be able to brew longer and increase production. Of course, since it takes three years to make Geuze we won't notice anything for a while!

Very cool place by the way.

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Old 05-30-2014, 02:09 PM   #19
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I think when it comes to research available for diacetyl reduction by yeast the best you'll find is a wine industry based research. Since the wine industry is backing the study that's what they'll study. You will not likely find research profiling diacetyl reduction ability of brett or dekkera because the wine industry hates them and don't care how well they reduce diacetyl because they don't want it in their musts. Although there is a realization that some regional styles achieve their signature flavors because of brett/dekkera. Joke's on the snooty brett/dekkera haters.

Anyhow research showing the how and why isn't a concern of mine. I've yet to drink a beer with pedio that also had brett that had any sign of diacetyl. Given enough time I would wager that it would be reduced no matter how productive the pedio is at making diacetyl. I've actually thought about using sausage making strains of pedio in beer since they're intended for fast growth and acid production.

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