Is Brett Predatory? - Page 3

ryane · 09-14-2011, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by statseeker

The only thing is: We're not 100% sure which strain it is. I just contacted Wyeast to find out just to double confirm whether or not it's Brux. I cant let this doubt go, no offense to ryane, I just want to know for sure.

Hey no worries, independent verification will be great, I couldnt find the thread that discussed this, I wanna say it was the greenboard but it could have been bbb

jmo88 · 09-15-2011, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by statseeker

The only thing is: We're not 100% sure which strain it is. I just contacted Wyeast to find out just to double confirm whether or not it's Brux. I cant let this doubt go, no offense to ryane, I just want to know for sure.

Isn't clausenii the strain that was isolated from English stock beers? That'd make sense if 9097 used that strain, but I don't see it in Wyeasts catalogue, so maybe they're using something else. I haven't tasted my old ale enough to have any personal observations.

statseeker · 09-15-2011, 10:14 AM

I think yes that is the one.

I found something EXTREMELY interesting searching around on wikipedia (I know, accuracy would dictate that wikipedia not be used, but since this isnt a dissertation, we'll go with it). Turns out Brux and Lambicus are genetically IDENTICAL. Abstinens and Custerianus are also identical. And Anomalus and Clausenii? Also identical. The types have evolutionarily built in redundancy. I think that's so that they can colonize with each other in the wild, thereby increasing their chances of survival upon being separated. Fungus is so interesting.

**smokinghole** · 09-15-2011, 11:15 AM

Clausenii is the strain that was isolated from the stock beers. It would make sense but it seems everyone kept getting reports that it was not clausenii in the blend.

The brux and lambicus may be almost identical but different strains can produce different results due to genetic drift and mutations. That's why the Wyeast strains are different than the White Labs stuff. Also the Russian River "Funky Bunch" I think were purchased strains from White Labs but he exposed them to his own selective pressures like higher alcohol or high temperatures and developed his own house character with them.

statseeker · 09-15-2011, 04:04 PM

Brux and lambicus and the other 2 twins are identical. Not almost, but DNA identical. Granted, they may have different evolutionary characteristics, but at a genetic level, they are the same organism.

"Examination of the Mitochondrial DNA of the genus Brettanomyces showed identical genomes in three pairs of species: Dekkera bruxellensis/Brettanomyces lambicus, Brettanomyces abstinens/Brettanomyces custerianus and Brettanomyces anomalus/Brettanomyces clausenii. It is suspected that the genus Dekkera has similar taxonomical redundancies."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brettanomyces_Claussenii#cite_note-3

I find all of this extremely interesting and quite puzzling all at the same time. But it kind of feeds into our discussion about whether the Old Ale strain from Wyeast is Brux or Lambicus. If they are identical (genetically anyway), it makes sense that there might be such a similarity that it breeds debate as far as which strain is the one in 9097.

ryane · 09-16-2011, 06:31 PM

I think we need to be careful when speaking of the strains as identical. Just because DNA is identical doesnt mean they function the same. It really depends on which enzymes and other proteins are expressed that determines the end effect. This is most likely why they have been labeled as different.

**smokinghole** · 09-16-2011, 06:47 PM

I'm no geneticist, but I do play a senior year biotechnology student during the week. The genes that are used to identify various species is not the entire genome. There will be coding and non coding genetic differences. Some of the coding variations can be multicopy genes that code for the same protein. When that happens the protein is produced more frequently. These multicopy genes will control the metabolic byproducts of each separate strain. With that being said that is likely the reason white labs brett L has a more "horsey" flavor than Wyeast's Brett L. So while they will be genetically similar as a species there will be genetic differences that allows each strain to have its on independent attributes. The problem with identifying the genes responsible for the attributes is not that the genome is not small. The Saccharomyces cerevisiae has more than 12million base pairs in length with 5,770 identified genes. Brettanomyces spp. is probably very similarly sized with less identified genes because there has not been a whole lot of research focused on brett.

So while some genes will be identical many will not be identical. That's why, as said above, breweries can basically induce house character over time. They will expose the yeast to specific environmental conditions that will force certain genes to become expressed stronger than others.

statseeker · 09-17-2011, 09:04 AM

See? This is a pretty cool discussion. I've never really gotten this in depth with brett. I've brewed with it, but never really heavily researched it. All of this is pretty fascinating. Makes me want to purchase several more carboys just for the purpose of aging brett-laced beers and culturing brett strains. I'm SUPER interested in Al's Bugfarm just to get some of the brett mixes.