Kegconnection Complete Starter Kit and More Giveaway!


Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Lambic & Wild Brewing > BerlinerWeisse

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-10-2010, 01:35 PM   #11
JoMarky
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 363
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisKennedy View Post
Jamil's method isn't adequate in my experience for producing a properly sour berliner.

It should be slightly tart right after fermentation, and it SHOULD continue to develop as time goes on.
I believe the lacto we can get from wyeast/white labs can only ferment glucose. Since the beers attenuate so low I wouldn't think there would be much of that left after fermentation was done. Do you think the flavor just becomes more apparent as the beer ages?
__________________
JoMarky is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-10-2010, 08:36 PM   #12
ChrisKennedy
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pittsburg, California
Posts: 385
Liked 11 Times on 10 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoMarky View Post
I believe the lacto we can get from wyeast/white labs can only ferment glucose. Since the beers attenuate so low I wouldn't think there would be much of that left after fermentation was done. Do you think the flavor just becomes more apparent as the beer ages?


I have never heard that they can only ferment glucose, do you have a source for that?

But you are right that aging can have an impact on the perception of sourness, which I believe largely has to do with the beer clearing up and tasting cleaner, letting the sourness come through more.

My sour mashed berliner weisse at work has gotten a bit more tart as time has gone on and as it cleared up.

But my homebrew berliners have gotten more sour over time than would be possible without the bugs doing work.
__________________
ChrisKennedy is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-10-2010, 09:11 PM   #13
JoMarky
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 363
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisKennedy View Post
I have never heard that they can only ferment glucose, do you have a source for that?

But you are right that aging can have an impact on the perception of sourness, which I believe largely has to do with the beer clearing up and tasting cleaner, letting the sourness come through more.

My sour mashed berliner weisse at work has gotten a bit more tart as time has gone on and as it cleared up.

But my homebrew berliners have gotten more sour over time than would be possible without the bugs doing work.
Yah, I can certainly see a cleaner beer allowing the lactic acid to come through more.

My only source as for the lacto is Wild Brews:

"Lactobacillus Delbrueckii, one of the most common species available to U.S. brewers, ... ... Homofermentative, L. Delbrueckii produces one product (lactic acid) from one substrate (glucose). L. Delbrueckii produces only lactic acid (as wells as carbon dioxide) as a by-product of fermentation." pg. 111.

I've tried finding out more, but all of the information on L. Delbrueckii are on the 2 subspecies used in dairy fermentation, L. Delbrueckii ssp. Lactis and L. Delbrueckii ssp. Bulgaricus. L. Delbrueckii ssp. Delbrueckii is the sub-species I believe we use, but haven't been able to find any information on it.

On the other hand, Lactobacillus Brevis, which is found in Lambics and Flanders, is heterofermentative, and also quite resistant to hop acids. I imagine L. Brevis would be present in a sour mash or on grain husks.
__________________

Last edited by JoMarky; 06-10-2010 at 09:15 PM.
JoMarky is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 06-16-2010, 02:13 PM   #14
tbeard
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Montana, Montana
Posts: 24
Default

I would suggest adding lactose to add sourness, the lactobacillus gets rid of all of the lactose, it will not contribute to the body. Lactose cannot be fermented by yeast, so this should give you pretty good control over sourness in your beer. On another note, if you are looking for more interesting lactobacillus strains, just pitch a little quality yogurt, they will have a mixture of excellent souring bacteria, just watch for too much acetylaldehyde production.

__________________
tbeard is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-10-2010, 12:15 PM   #15
brettwasbtd
Awesomeness Award Winnner
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
brettwasbtd's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Damascus, MD
Posts: 1,309
Liked 32 Times on 30 Posts
Likes Given: 57

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pipapat View Post
anyone know where i can get some wombats for this batch?
lol

Im going to brew 2.
1 with the short cut methods all grain and 1 with a culture.
I'll report back on the second in 3-6 months.
The first im 5-6 weeks out.
One month left to report! Any updates?
__________________
Shegogue Brew | Pronounced "Shuh·goo" | http://shegoguebrew.blogspot.com | BJCP Judge B0999
brettwasbtd is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-11-2010, 02:05 AM   #16
avidhomebrewer
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,552
Liked 23 Times on 22 Posts

Default

I've brewed one a few times and didn't make a starter with the lacto/pedio (forgot which one I used at the moment). It turned out sour after about 6 months of aging, but I wanted more sour punch. I would advise making a starter for the bugs that will do the souring. Also, the sourness dissipated too quickly in my batches. But, a very good brew.

__________________
avidhomebrewer is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-11-2010, 04:45 PM   #17
pipapat
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: slc
Posts: 315
Liked 3 Times on 3 Posts

Default

im 5 months out now if i remember correctly. A lacto starter would have aided the bugged beer.

The short cut method never got any more sour.
Both are good but i should have pitched a puro laco culture in the beer and waited a day before pitching the yeast.

__________________
pipapat is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-11-2010, 08:11 PM   #18
rtt121
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Indian Mills, NJ
Posts: 267
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

The best info I have come across for BW is in this thread: http://forum.northernbrewer.com/view...hilit=berliner

The good information is not from the OP. A user named Mashweasel. I will sum up his experience (he is a pro from how it reads), but reading the whole thread is probably a good idea.

Mashweasel: Sour mash is a very bad idea. Ive done alright with mine and its 50% pils 50% wheat, single decoction with a mash hop. NO, boil. Thats right, NO boil. Ferment 4 days in primary, 3 day 2ndary, into the bottle with fresh yeast: bacteria.

Mashweasel:The souring of the beer comes from the lactobacillus found on the grain when it ferments, NOT before fermentation. As I said before. A simple grist of 50% wheat and 50% pils is the way to go. Something like 10 IBUs of any german hop will be fine of which they will be mash hopped. A single decoction is a must b/c this beer is not boiled. A sour mash will not accomplish the level of sourness, carbonation and dryness for which this style is known. Pitch both ale yeast and lactobacillus.

Fermentation: Open fermentation for 4 days, starting at 68F going up to 75F. 2ndary, ~75F for 7 days.

Bottle condition: Repitch fresh yeast and bacteria to about 4-4.5vol of CO2. Its going to have to stay in the bottles for quite a while.

This is really the only way to do a Berliner Weiss and have it come out in the traditional manner. Ive had a bunch of sour mashed beers and they just dont taste right. They either have a ton of other flavors from the sour mash or they have to big of body, not dry enough and not sour enough. People then take to adding a bunch of lactic acid. Not good.


Mashweasel
: Sure. Even though I list the 'decoction' as very important, its not THE most important thing. Mash hop. Do a multistep rest. 135F x 2 hours, 149 x 1 hour, bring it up to 170F x 10min and then dont boil. Add lacto and yeast at a 3:1 ratio to start. This will give you a good idea of what the beer will be like. You will be missing a lot of the 'wheaty' flavor but if you are going to try this style, you have to get the fermentation and lacto:yeast right. MUST bottle condition. If you do it this way, let it sit in the bottle and forget about it. Then do another one with your 'fast' method. Then compare the two.

Mashweasel: Did some counts on the yeast and bacteria for ya'll as follows:

Wyeast 1007 10^9/ ml

Lacto 10^6 to 10^7/ ml

Its about 100-1000 fold difference between the two. NO WHERE near the 3:1 - 5:1 yeast.

Most people dont understand this. You will definitely need a starter for the Lacto. NO hops in the starter. I do mine at 37C shaking overnight and that works fine. If you do it at room temp, it will take longer by far.

Mashweasel: Mine usually goes into bottles after the primary so at about day 4 I like to do it. However it may have to wait until the weekend...day 7ish. You can do a secondary if you like if you find that you are getting to much dunk in your bottles. I've done it many different ways. I find the sooner I get it into the bottles the better it is. You should have a good amount of sourness going into the bottle. I've found that the sourness develops quite quickly in the bottle if you condition them warm (~80-85F) for a few weeks. It will get more sour in the bottle than out of it at a much faster rate also.

__________________
rtt121 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Berlinerweisse Questions... GweedoeBrew Fermentation & Yeast 2 04-26-2010 11:50 PM