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Old 03-30-2011, 04:25 AM   #11
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a BW should not have acetic acid in it, it is all about the lactic acid.
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2...tanomyces.html
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Old 03-30-2011, 05:13 AM   #12
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I guess Im missing your point? that link doesnt address anything about vinegar in a Bweiss, it only talks about brett presence in a 25yr old bottle?
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Old 03-30-2011, 05:54 AM   #13
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I was speaking more to BenSiffs notion that it is all about the lactic acid. How is it that we can be so sure of this? If the lacto is historically accurate, would it not stand to reason that there very well could have been a brett presence to some degree or another in some of the many examples of the style from those times? Was it even possible for pre-industrial age brewers to isolate and maintain separate, individual cultures of sacc yeast/ lactic bacteria and or brett.... or any microscopic organisms for that matter? If beers of those days were more "wild" in general, I'm still at a loss as to how some brews wound up more dominant in any one particular fermenting microbe over any another. Where did the sourness historically originate from in a BW? Was it due to more of an open style fermentation or a yeast culture that was shared amongst brewers of the style? If I had to guess I'd say that much like Saisons there was probably no single standard and that different breweries had different takes on the style and that some may have been more tart and some may have been more funky and that some laid somewhere at all points in between.

But yes, I agree, as far as most are concerned as of these days, BW is heavily lactic.

However, the one I made does not at all suffer from the brett presence. It is still quite tart and refreshing.

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Old 03-31-2011, 07:19 PM   #14
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anyone wash and save the yeast from a BW?
I was thinking on doing it with this yeast

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Old 03-31-2011, 11:02 PM   #15
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I was speaking more to BenSiffs notion that it is all about the lactic acid. How is it that we can be so sure of this? If the lacto is historically accurate, would it not stand to reason that there very well could have been a brett presence to some degree or another in some of the many examples of the style from those times? Was it even possible for pre-industrial age brewers to isolate and maintain separate, individual cultures of sacc yeast/ lactic bacteria and or brett.... or any microscopic organisms for that matter? If beers of those days were more "wild" in general, I'm still at a loss as to how some brews wound up more dominant in any one particular fermenting microbe over any another. Where did the sourness historically originate from in a BW? Was it due to more of an open style fermentation or a yeast culture that was shared amongst brewers of the style? If I had to guess I'd say that much like Saisons there was probably no single standard and that different breweries had different takes on the style and that some may have been more tart and some may have been more funky and that some laid somewhere at all points in between.

But yes, I agree, as far as most are concerned as of these days, BW is heavily lactic.

However, the one I made does not at all suffer from the brett presence. It is still quite tart and refreshing.
Very good thoughts for sure. However, I was speaking to BW's of today where you should only have lactic acid. Brett, if present, should be mild and not adding to the acid.
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Old 04-01-2011, 01:28 AM   #16
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Very good thoughts for sure. However, I was speaking to BW's of today where you should only have lactic acid. Brett, if present, should be mild and not adding to the acid.
Fair enough.... but I think that is only or mostly for those who are seeking to appease BJCP guidelines. Hell, I can only ever find one, maybe two actual German BW's here in Philly, and we have access to an amazing array of beers here. So I'm not that sure I can confidently assess the style based on a mere two examples. Even when I've been in Germany and Berlin specifically, I could only really find Berliner Kindl and that wasn't even all that great. I think it'd be more appropriate to do research into the history of the brew than to try to approximate some sort of take on a non-historical version of it. However, this is just the opinion of one person so take it for what that's worth. I mean hell, I aged my BW on 5pounds of frozen Golden Raspberries from my garden, pitched the dregs of two Orval bottles and it still wound up tasting nearly identical to the Fritz Briem 1809, if not better in my opinion.

I would really love to try the Gosebrauerei Bayerischer Bahnhof's Brett L Berliner. Sounds deeeeeelightful.
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Old 04-01-2011, 01:31 AM   #17
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anyone wash and save the yeast from a BW?
I was thinking on doing it with this yeast
No, but, I can tell you that I've used the dregs from my BW's to get a very viral sourdough starter going.


You might want to ask user Oldsock. His site has a lot of useful info on that sort of thing.
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Old 04-01-2011, 02:19 AM   #18
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Fair enough.... but I think that is only or mostly for those who are seeking to appease BJCP guidelines. Hell, I can only ever find one, maybe two actual German BW's here in Philly, and we have access to an amazing array of beers here. So I'm not that sure I can confidently assess the style based on a mere two examples. Even when I've been in Germany and Berlin specifically, I could only really find Berliner Kindl and that wasn't even all that great. I think it'd be more appropriate to do research into the history of the brew than to try to approximate some sort of take on a non-historical version of it. However, this is just the opinion of one person so take it for what that's worth. I mean hell, I aged my BW on 5pounds of frozen Golden Raspberries from my garden, pitched the dregs of two Orval bottles and it still wound up tasting nearly identical to the Fritz Briem 1809, if not better in my opinion.

I would really love to try the Gosebrauerei Bayerischer Bahnhof's Brett L Berliner. Sounds deeeeeelightful.
I have the same problem in the greater Seattle area, not a lot of selection. However, I will defer to experts such as Kristen England when it comes to the details of the style. But, there is nothing wrong with researching a styles history to learn. I'm not a huge fan of the acetic acid character so I agree with the guidelines on that issue. On my current batch I'm going to bottle 5 gallons straight and then add Avery 15 dregs to the other 5 gallons at bottling. This should keep the acetic character down and give a subtle hint of the funk so I can compare side by side with/without brett to see what I prefer.
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