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Old 11-24-2013, 03:27 PM   #311
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So for those of you using method 2a (normal mash, pitch lacto a few days before pitching ale yeast), how long does the sourness take to develop?

Also, when would I add fruit using this method? Give it say 2 weeks in primary, then rack to fruit in secondary for a few months? I want to have a fruited BW ready for drinking next summer. ANy thoughts?



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Old 11-27-2013, 04:55 AM   #312
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Quick question, so i made my Berliner pitched lacto and S05 at the same time, beer fermented out, lacto came in and was going along nicely, so i decided to transfer it to a secondary to get it off the yeast cake and let it sit...

My question is what temp should i hold this at? Is 70 ok? Should i bring it up to 75-80 or higher to really let the lacto take off? I dont see how going higher now that the fermentation is done and the yeast are mostly gone could hurt the beer, but ive never done a sour so i just dont know!



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Old 11-30-2013, 04:03 PM   #313
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I brewed a Saison a while back that I wanted to sour a bit using the sour mash technique I described earlier. Because I only wanted it a little sour, I racked off a couple of gallons, added the grain and put it in the oven at 105F. After three days, it had a bit of a pellicle but was not very sour at all and a gravity check showed very little sugars had been consumed. I left it for another day but it did not improve. I then checked on my kettle (which I had left at cellar temp, ~62F). It had a giant pellicle and tasted quite sour, and was about 8 gravity points lower than where I started, so I proceeded I did before (did a normal boil, 105 minutes since I had Pils and for volume). It worked out great, but the portions I separated behaved completely opposite as anticipated.

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Old 01-28-2014, 05:54 PM   #314
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Next week i'm trying a new method. Here it is:

3lbs Pils
3lbs Red Wheat Malt

Step Mash
Filtration
15 minutes boil with 10g EKG (4 IBU) (1.030-1.035)
Active lacto culture pitch in the kettle after cooled to 100°F (Lacto D.)
2 or 3 days sour worting
60 minutes
1/4oz Cascade 20m
1/4oz Cascade 5m
(11 IBU final)
Us05 fermentation
Bottling with Brett Lambicus addition

It should give me, after carbonation and some brett over work, a 4% really sparkly BW.

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Old 01-30-2014, 12:27 PM   #315
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Why are you doing two boils?

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Old 02-04-2014, 01:35 AM   #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bknifefight View Post
Why are you doing two boils?
The first one is just to sterilise the wort prior to the sour worting. Then I'm sur I have nothing else than lacto going on. The second is to sterilize again, boil off DMS and hop the wort.
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Old 02-04-2014, 04:25 AM   #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiroux View Post
The first one is just to sterilise the wort prior to the sour worting. Then I'm sur I have nothing else than lacto going on. The second is to sterilize again, boil off DMS and hop the wort.
Your first boil is completely unnecessary. Mashing at 150 takes care of most beasties and anything that tries to take root in there will be discouraged by heat (100-110F or 38-43C) and by covering your vessel and purging the headspace with CO2. Butyric Acid bacteria and Acetobacter are your main culprits of Berliner problems and both work to convert alcohol to the dreaded butyric acid and acetic acid (vinegar) respectively.

However, your initial fermentation is using Lactobacillus Delbrueckii to convert sugar to lactic acid. Lacto D. is a known homofermentative species and as such will not produce anything but lactic acid during its fermentation process. Your wort will contain sugar, starch, proteins, lactic acid and water, but no alcohol until you introduce yeast after your proposed second boil.

Furthermore, once the wort is inoculated with Lacto D., it will crowd out competitors like a yeast when introduced in a large enough quantity, like let's say, a smackpack. And once it takes root, it will work rather quickly to lower the pH below 4.5. Again, the low pH is in your favor and makes it hard for undesirables to gain any headway.

Like any other beer, with proper sanitation and a little preparation, you can sour mash easily and safely with very little to worry about.
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Old 02-04-2014, 02:39 PM   #318
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I know all that (and by the way, lacto D is hetero, blowing out a lot of co2, wich is impossible if producing only lactic acid). But hey, could it hurt to take 15 minutes more? Better be too safe than not enough.


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Old 02-04-2014, 04:57 PM   #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiroux View Post
I know all that (and by the way, lacto D is hetero, blowing out a lot of co2, wich is impossible if producing only lactic acid). But hey, could it hurt to take 15 minutes more? Better be too safe than not enough.


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Just because you have airlock activity does not mean its exclusively CO2. During any fermentation gaseous byproducts are produced. Check this out...http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Lactobacillus_delbrueckii
and this...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus

Both sources list Lacto D. as an obligately homofermentative species. I'm not trying to prove you wrong, just give you a little food for thought. The first boil is unnecessary, but can certainly give someone peace of mind. I've done several berliners with no pre-inoculation boil and I've also done a few with the always scary sour mash technique, all to spectacular results.
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Old 02-04-2014, 05:20 PM   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fc36 View Post
Just because you have airlock activity does not mean its exclusively CO2. During any fermentation gaseous byproducts are produced. Check this out...http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Lactobacillus_delbrueckii
and this...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus

Both sources list Lacto D. as an obligately homofermentative species. I'm not trying to prove you wrong, just give you a little food for thought. The first boil is unnecessary, but can certainly give someone peace of mind. I've done several berliners with no pre-inoculation boil and I've also done a few with the always scary sour mash technique, all to spectacular results.
Well, that shakes my knowledge... My lacto culture is going on in a erlenmeyer right now, since over a week, with an airlock. I have a massive gaz expulsion, for several days, and no pellicule at all, wich means no oxygen. I also did a 100% lacto D fermentation for 3 weeks in a carboy, (wich I after blended with a 100% brett fermentation), and I never had any sign of pellicule. And I can tell it was alcoholic at the end.

That said...
1- What might be, if not CO2, that is pushing out?
2- Well, maybe Wyeast Lacto D isn't a pure lacto D culture?


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