Spike Brewing 12.5 Conical Fermenter Giveaway - Enter Now!

Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Lambic & Wild Brewing > American Saison idea

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 08-19-2011, 10:59 PM   #11
DannPM
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: KC Area, KS
Posts: 1,829
Liked 20 Times on 18 Posts
Likes Given: 34

Default

You guys positive that they ferment in a single vessel, bacteria working at 36 ibus, one wort, no blending?

__________________

Time to have some fun

DannPM is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-19-2011, 11:34 PM   #12
smokinghole
Senior Member
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
smokinghole's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lucid Dream Land
Posts: 2,861
Liked 109 Times on 91 Posts
Likes Given: 10

Default

There most certainly is blending. I haven't done enough research but its my understanding that lambic producers use 3 year aged hops with little to no alpha acid because they don't want the bitterness. However the bateriostatic properties of the hops still do their job to inhibit some Enterobacteriaceae and Lactobacillus. Lactobacillus is still an aspect of lambic production but the workhorses of a lambic ferment is the Brettanomyces and Pediococcus.

One of the reasons everyone suggests low IBUs in many sour beer is because you don't need the hop bitterness to balance sweetness. Sours have acid to provide that role really. Also with the White Labs and Wyeast Lactobacillus delbrueckii have a very low alpha acid tolerance. L. delbrueckii are a homofermentative species of lactobacillus only producing lactic acid and CO2. Other strains can produce other metabolites which may or may not be desirable in beer.

Others like Oldsock may have more insight. I'm just starting to dig into the geekdom of sour and wild beers. Also don't take my word as gospel I may have misread or misunderstood something that I repeated above.

__________________

Going through life is hard.
Going through life stupid is harder.

smokinghole is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-20-2011, 01:35 AM   #13
DannPM
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: KC Area, KS
Posts: 1,829
Liked 20 Times on 18 Posts
Likes Given: 34

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by smokinghole View Post
Others like Oldsock may have more insight. I'm just starting to dig into the geekdom of sour and wild beers. Also don't take my word as gospel I may have misread or misunderstood something that I repeated above.
True man, I'm in the same boat, not trying to lecture anyone here I was just trying to get things straight for the OP based on my concerns, which are, of course, not even near an expert level.

Did find this from Vinne though on babblebelt, awesome slideshow.

http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/brew_resource/RRsour_beer_presentation.ppt

Lacto gets slowed down by it, but not fully inhibited, and pedio is pretty much resistant, all per the slideshow. Check it out!
__________________

Time to have some fun

DannPM is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2011, 04:26 AM   #14
Prionburger
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 181
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Stewing on this idea still. Here's what I've got:

I'm thinking of using Willamette instead of Northern Brewer for the bittering, and Cluster for the aroma. Perhaps a touch of Crystal to support the Cluster aroma, but perhaps not.

I'll dump the Vienna for simplicity (for now).

And corn! Just a pound.

OG will be ~1.060

86% American pilsner--maybe I'm stuck with German/Belgian pils or American pale.
7% Flaked Wheat
7% Flaked Corn

I'll use Wyeast 3724 with the MrMalty calculator, and pitch some JP dregs in primary before ferment.

__________________
Prionburger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-10-2011, 06:38 AM   #15
Prionburger
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 181
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Brewing a clean version of this right now to grow yeast.

12Lb Weyermann pilsner
1 Lb Flaked Barley
1 Lb Flaked Corn

Mashed at 145-147f for 90 minutes, then brought to 162f at mashout.

Target OG will be about 1.062

I'm going to bitter with Wilamette, and then finish mostly with Cluster.

60 minutes Willamette 32 IBU (Rager)

10 minutes 0.5oz cluster, 0.25oz Willamette

0 minutes 1.5oz cluster, 0.25oz Willamette

Total IBUs will be about 40 from Rager.

Pretty striking how much more aroma the Willamette hops have. We'll see what happens when I put the huge Cluster charge in at the end.

Fermenting with WLP566 Saison II

__________________
Prionburger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-10-2011, 10:18 PM   #16
Prionburger
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 181
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Here's throwing the corn in:



The mash:



And in the fermenter (bottom). I use a big styrofoam box with a heating pad+controller for temp control.





The O.G. ended up at 1.065. Pretty big jump in my efficiency. I couldn't slow the boil down enough to prevent over-shooting. I wonder if it was from the corn converting more efficiently than malt.

__________________
Prionburger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-10-2011, 11:05 PM   #17
bovineblitz
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 2,330
Liked 113 Times on 94 Posts
Likes Given: 37

Default

I like the idea, can't wait to hear how it turns out

__________________
bovineblitz is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-12-2011, 10:11 PM   #18
boostsr20
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 807
Liked 6 Times on 6 Posts
Likes Given: 5

Default

Should have kept the Vienna and added some rye in there too. I'm sure it'll be good as is though. I like complex malt character.

__________________
boostsr20 is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-13-2011, 12:27 AM   #19
Prionburger
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 181
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Yeah in the future I may fix up the malt bill a bit to make it golden colored. Funny you said rye, because when I passed the grain bucket full of rye malt, it took a lot of willpower to avoid throwing it in.

I thought it would be best to start off simple and pale, so I could concentrate on analyzing the hop profile, which is the most likely flaw I expect. Also, from my experience, simple pale beers are always delicious. Darker malts on the other hand are an area where I screw up frequently.

And an update: Fermentation started at 68f, and I brought it to 77 over 3 days. I'll hold it at 78 for a week after that. Unlike the other saison strains I've used (3724, 3725, 3711), this one needed a blowoff tube! Only a little bit though. I gave it a huge starter and a rich wort, plenty of oxygen, and little headspace, so I was asking for it.

__________________
Prionburger is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-13-2011, 02:14 AM   #20
jtakacs
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 742
Liked 15 Times on 15 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

rye would have been a natural, but i love the corn addition here... my next beer is highly likely a saison and i've been wanting to do a "black saison" and i'm curious as to how this comes out...

__________________
jtakacs is offline
 
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply


Quick Reply
Message:
Options
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sour Saison chode720 Lambic & Wild Brewing 26 10-08-2013 12:18 PM
My Brett Saison jgardner6 Lambic & Wild Brewing 37 09-05-2011 06:51 AM
When to bottle a funky saison? Prionburger Lambic & Wild Brewing 10 05-07-2011 11:31 AM
Saison de Provision Saccharomyces Lambic & Wild Brewing 37 01-22-2011 05:33 PM
Sour Saison? jgardner6 Lambic & Wild Brewing 3 07-17-2010 08:16 PM