American Lambic Project

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adamjackson

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I want to take some time and do it this summer to make a barrel aged Lambic (Lambik / Lambiek)

I know it takes some time (one year, right?) to ferment and let the wild yeast do it's thing. I know it's a lot of work so no need to post it all here but are there online guides to doing this?

Basically here's what I want to do.

1. Create a Lambiek using wild yeast
2. ferment it for two years in an 8 gallon oak barrel
3. At the one year mark, I make another one
4. Blend the two at the two year mark
5. Re-ferment in a larger barrel or metal fermenter with fruit additions.

I know it's a big undertaking but I think it'll be a lot of fun. So, no speculation please, I'd like to hear from people who have actually done this successfully and what they learned.

I read this but there just aren't many exhaustive guides to doing this at home - http://***********/stories/beer-styles/article/indices/11-beer-styles/979-lambic-brewing
 
Also, similar topic. Anyone have experience with barrel buying? I was thinking of doing a system of 3 15 gallon barrels but would like to go smaller..but after so long, (2 years), if the beer was really good, I'd probably wish I had more.

Barrel Rack

15 Gallon French Oak Barrels

French are a bit more expensive than American oak but I hear it's worth the price
 
personally, I'd do a solera so its an ongoing blend and you only need 1 barrel. every 6-18 months, pull out a few gallons and replenish.

also, i would not buy a new oak barrel for this. it'll get way too much oak character. try to bug a local brewery/vineyard/distiller for a used one
 
I agree with dcp27. Having a used barrel will allow you to get some of the oak flavour, but allow you to keep it from over-powering the rest the flavours. Also, they will most likely be less expensive than the barrels listed at the site you posted.
 
For ease and making sure you don't ruin your batch, I would recommend capturing the yeast first then stepping up the culture to a pitchable amount. I say that because the first several tries for me to capture wild yeast ended up with black mold, the fifth try yielded wild yeast.
 
Based on how long term of a project this could be, I'd recommend trying to find some other interested parties and using a used wine barrel. You actually want it at the point where a vintner has no use for it anymore other than reconditioning. I also agree that trying to score with local wild yeast is touchy. I'd much rather pitch the know Lambic blends. I'm not an expert but we did just take an NHC first round Gold with a barrel aged Framboise.
 
Probably best off trying to score wild yeast off local fruit rather than trying to rely on the air unless you have lab skills to take what you want and leave the rest.

My attempt at culturing wild yeast got something that produced a ton of diacetyl, definitely some sacc-like yeast and brett. Probably some other stuff. For a while it tasted like nasty butter. Then brett and a little butter. That was about 4-6 months out (I forget which). I found some of the cake in my fridge that was about 18 months old. It smelled slightly tart and cherry-ish with no butter. I dumped it (before I smelled it) and was sad. Then I realized I had some frozen so I'm building up a starter of it now to toss it in some beer. So lesson there is don't assume you will like what you get or get something drinkable after a year. You may have to sit on the beer for 18 months or two years (or more) before it gets somewhere enjoyable.
 
Great tips. Yeast first then go from there. Can you get the yeast from some of the popular more wild beers? I have these breweries in my cellar

3F
Boon
Cantillon
Orval
Lost Abbey
Russian River
girardin

Are any of those breweries making beers that have yeast easily extractable?
 
Great tips. Yeast first then go from there. Can you get the yeast from some of the popular more wild beers? I have these breweries in my cellar

3F
Boon
Cantillon
Orval
Lost Abbey
Russian River
girardin

Are any of those breweries making beers that have yeast easily extractable?

So by your OP it sounded like you wanted to go with really wild yeast, like spontaneous fermentation. That's what I was referring to, capturing wild yeast. If you just want to use dregs, and that's a great option, you could just ferment with clean brewers yeast then pitch some dregs from the above mentioned beers.
 
You need to start doing a lot of research.
-cultivating/washing yeast
-barrel cleaning
-turbid mash
These would be some good topics to explore before diving into this.

Home-brewed lambics are notoriously "meh". You should work on your recipe first and then start using oak.

Also, pick up a copy of Wild Brews before you do anything.
 
First the function of the Oak is to provide a strata for the bacteria to grow on, not to impart any flavor so you definitely do not want a new barrel, but you definitely want Oak in your fermenter. You also want old (as in lying around exposed to oxygen for at least a year) nasty cheesy hops. Since you don't want hop aroma or bitterness home grown hops work well for this. Just make sure to dry them out and leave them lying around for a year.

+1 on Wild Brews it's a good read with a truck load of useful information if you want to start playing around with sour brews.

I've been brewing lambics for 3 years know and am in the middle of a Geuze project. I ferment in 2 old bulk LME containers; big blue plastic "barrels" that hold ~12 gallons. As bonus a standard spigot threads right into the smaller hole. I picked them up from my LHBS for something like $5 each. I saved up about 6oz. of oak chips that had been used on a few batches of IPA and Strong ale. I boiled them before tossing them into the ferm. When I started I just bought several strains of yeast from Wyeast (3278 -Belgian Lambic Blend, 3942-Belgian Wheat, and 5526 - Brettanomyces lambicus)

I ferment in one for about a year then transfer the remainder to the second add fruit and hold for another year then bottle. Then I pitch a new batch right on to the dregs of the first. My first batch (blueberry) went well enough that I decided to start keeping 5 gallons in a corny for longer storage to make a Geuze.

Attempting to culture yeast off of the grapes growing in our back yard has been mezza mezza. I did finally get something (most likely brett) that seemed worth while and tossed it in last year, but I'd hesitate to suggest it's imparted that much or that I'd want to use it exclusively.

I keep both fermenters out in the garage so not much happens in the Winter. I try and brew my annual Lambic in early July so it gets some growth on both ends.

HTH
 
Hops Direct sells aged hops. Aging them yourself doesn't always end well, and takes a LONG time, so I recommend buying from them.
 
Baloo said:
First the function of the Oak is to provide a strata for the bacteria to grow on, not to impart any flavor so you definitely do not want a new barrel, but you definitely want Oak in your fermenter. You also want old (as in lying around exposed to oxygen for at least a year) nasty cheesy hops. Since you don't want hop aroma or bitterness home grown hops work well for this. Just make sure to dry them out and leave them lying around for a year.

"a strata" is a breakfast food. Delicious, too. There are plenty of lambics with oak character. Drie Fonteinen is famous for it.

There also isn't much reason to use aged hops unless you have them on hand (besides tradition, obviously). An ounce of sub-4% aa noble hop works just as well and won't impart a noticeable bitterness after you're done aging.
 
dwarven_stout said:
"a strata" is a breakfast food. Delicious, too. There are plenty of lambics with oak character. Drie Fonteinen is famous for it.

There also isn't much reason to use aged hops unless you have them on hand (besides tradition, obviously). An ounce of sub-4% aa noble hop works just as well and won't impart a noticeable bitterness after you're done aging.

Lambics are highly hopped as a measure of some degree of control against the bugs. An ounce in a 5gal batch really isn't enough for "Lambic" - 4oz or more is highly recommended. Even at 1oz, I wouldn't feel comfortable using fresh hops, but at 4+ oz, it's a no-brainer. Besides, they can be purchased from HopsDirect for dirt cheap if you don't have them on hand. Potentially compromising your brew and trying to save a dollar or two on a beer that takes so long from grain to glass is flat-out insane.

And yes, certain lambics have some oak character. But fermenting it in a *new* oak barrel the entire time is just going to make it taste like extremely astringent oak juice, ESPECIALLY at the batch sizes that homebrewers use (given the increased surface area to volume ratio). If you want to add oak to your lambic (and I find a mild oaking can really add another dimension, as it does to wines), that's really not the way to go.
 
"a strata" is a breakfast food. Delicious, too.

That should have been the singular "stratum", in the geologic sense. I'm in the middle of a Kölsh brew and not spending time proof-reading. The point is that the oak provides a nice comfy home for the bacteria. This is especially helpful for pediococcus which doesn't get started until after saccharomyces has wound down.

Yes a mild oak characteristic is frequently found in lambics, but the amount of oak you'd get after a month (let alone a year) in a new oak cask is not.

Sure there are exceptions. Charlie Parker played critically acclaimed Jazz without melody, but no one would suggest a beginning musician should just start stringing a few notes together before they learned their scales.
 
Lambics are highly hopped as a measure of some degree of control against the bugs. An ounce in a 5gal batch really isn't enough for "Lambic" - 4oz or more is highly recommended. Even at 1oz, I wouldn't feel comfortable using fresh hops, but at 4+ oz, it's a no-brainer. Besides, they can be purchased from HopsDirect for dirt cheap if you don't have them on hand. Potentially compromising your brew and trying to save a dollar or two on a beer that takes so long from grain to glass is flat-out insane.
Um.. I get what you're trying to say, but you're wrong. An ounce of whole, fresh hops is not the traditional way to do a lambic, but nothing that you make in America will be a "traditional" lambic. An ounce of low AA noble hops absolutely is enough to keep bad bacteria like the enterobacters in check. The reason that you have to use such a large amount of aged hops for the same effect is that the oxidized beta acids are less effective against bacteria than fresh alpha acids. You are in no danger of compromising your brew, and NHC gold medal lambics have been brewed this way. Given that, why make your life harder for a difference that you can't taste?
And yes, certain lambics have some oak character. But fermenting it in a *new* oak barrel the entire time is just going to make it taste like extremely astringent oak juice, ESPECIALLY at the batch sizes that homebrewers use (given the increased surface area to volume ratio). If you want to add oak to your lambic (and I find a mild oaking can really add another dimension, as it does to wines), that's really not the way to go.
Avoiding new oak was covered in page 1. Bobby suggested (and I agree) getting an old barrel to fill. This is the way to go if you want a lambic that borders on traditional, IMO. Avoiding oak altogether, or using only boiled oak chips is a different topic, and that's what I was responding to.
That should have been the singular "stratum", in the geologic sense. I'm in the middle of a Kölsh brew and not spending time proof-reading. The point is that the oak provides a nice comfy home for the bacteria. This is especially helpful for pediococcus which doesn't get started until after saccharomyces has wound down.
It doesn't make any more sense to say "stratum". Not to be overly pedantic, but you're talking about the bugs using the chips as some sort of habitat, not having them sedimentate out. Pedio is hardy as long as you keep it away from large amounts of O2. It'll be there when you need it whether you have oak chips or not.
 
It doesn't make any more sense to say "stratum". Not to be overly pedantic, but you're talking about the bugs using the chips as some sort of habitat, not having them sedimentate out.

Correct while yeast is perfectly happy hanging out in suspension, bacteria tend to like having nooks and crannies to work their way into. Brett can also use cellulose as a food source. Oak or really wood (Chestnut is used as well) is pretty essential for lamibics and not the flavor. So instead of a homogeneous aqueous growth medium (wort in a smooth sided fermenter) you have a layered growth medium (wood floating on top of the wort)

Also, I recommended using the oak chips for a few brews then boiling them (for sanitation). Not simply boiling fresh oak chips.


Given that, why make your life harder for a difference that you can't taste?

So buying aged hops or holding on to an open bag for a year is way too much work, but finding a source for a used 5 - 10 gallon oak barrel (pretty much rules out a commercial winery), then making sure it's not completely infected with acetobacter is the only way to go?

Oh the irony!
 
Correct while yeast is perfectly happy hanging out in suspension, bacteria tend to like having nooks and crannies to work their way into. Brett can also use cellulose as a food source. Oak or really wood (Chestnut is used as well) is pretty essential for lamibics and not the flavor.

So instead of a homogeneous aqueous growth medium (wort in a smooth sided fermenter) you have a layered growth medium (wood floating on top of the wort)

There are 3 primary organisms responsible for lambic fermentations:

1) Saccharomyces
2) Brettanomyces
3) Pediococcus

Pedio grows just fine in solution, forming rafts of polysaccharide "slime". This network also hosts reproducing Brett, the which conveniently incorporates the slime into new cell walls and removes it from the beer. That's why I'm skeptical of your claim that (paraphrased) "wood is essential because bacteria won't grow without it".

Yes, Brett *can* metabolize cellulose. Like many other things that brett can metabolize, cellulose is generally assumed to be a bit player compared to sugars, dextrose chains, and even autolysed sacch cells, and I've yet to see anyone prove (not suggest) otherwise.

So buying aged hops or holding on to an open bag for a year is way too much work, but finding a source for a used 5 - 10 gallon oak barrel (pretty much rules out a commercial winery), then making sure it's not completely infected with acetobacter is the only way to go?

Misrepresenting my argument does nothing to help yours.

When I agreed with other posters on the barrel, we were talking about a 53 gal used wine barrel. If you want to make the best pseudo-lambic, that's the singe best improvement to make. Get a couple guys together and fill one up. They're even cheaper than the 5-10gal ones to boot!

The primary functions of oak barrels in traditional lambic brewing are twofold: permit oxygen into the fermenting beer (slowing lactic acid production and increasing brett activity) and providing a carryover population of microflora to the next beer.
 
@dwarven stout and @Baloo if you would both please submitt samples of your lambics for my tasting I will be happy to resolve all arguments :)
 
JacobS said:
@dwarven stout and @Baloo if you would both please submitt samples of your lambics for my tasting I will be happy to resolve all arguments :)

Hahaha. I'm running low, but when we fill the barrel I'll see what I have.
 
This is all really interesting. Just subscribing because I would like to do something like this in the future!
 
QUOTE=dwarven_stout;4179743] That's why I'm skeptical of your claim that (paraphrased) "wood is essential because bacteria won't grow without it".
[/QUOTE]

I never said bacteria wouldn’t grow without wood. They will be happier with wood in the fermenter and happier bugs are more likely to give you what you want. This goes double if you’re planning on reusing them for a second batch.

Sure a used wine barrel would be the “best” way to emulate traditional lambic brewing, but 60 gallons (wine barrels are 60; whisky barrels are 53) is a lot of beer to brew/consume and will likely be out of reach for many, if not most, home-brewers (even if they band together). I for one would never be able to convince my wife that two wine barrels would be just fine out in our garage. Buying a new 10 or 15 gallon barrel and running several other brews (e.g. IPAs, Strong Ales, etc) through it before making it a lambic fementer is probably a more realistic option for a hobbyist, and one I may take down the road. But that’s still a considerable amount of time, effort, and expense probably best saved until you’re sure you want to brew lambics on a regular basis

The OP mentioned wanting to get an “8 gallon” oak barrel and do two brews to blend as a first attempt at a lambic. That alone should rule out the idea of a used commercial wine barrel as a plausible suggestion. I offered up what has worked well for me as an inexpensive, small scale, and easy to set up means of fermenting lambic. You decided to jump on my case for having the audacity to suggest that wood should be an integral part of a process that traditionally uses wood.
 
Bobby_M said:
If my Framboise takes Gold later this week, I'll publish more drivel about the process than anyone would care to read.

+1 I would love to hear it anyways! You can pm me all your info.
 
I'm sure I'd read it too. Make a thread about it, if you have that much to say.
 
You decided to jump on my case for having the audacity to suggest that wood should be an integral part of a process that traditionally uses wood.
Well, I wasn't really trying to jump your case, but to the extent I was it was in an effort to inform. O2 levels in fermenting lambic have far more impact than the circumstances of their arrival. That's why barrels are good (and small barrels can give you vinegar), why the "oak stave" trick is good, and probably even why your process is good (since you initially ferment in plastic).

That said, homebrewing "myths" are something I try to avoid, and I think what you're saying here is a myth. I've heard it before, and I don't think it's correct.
I never said bacteria wouldn’t grow without wood. They will be happier with wood in the fermenter and happier bugs are more likely to give you what you want.
Ok, fair enough. You actually said
The point is that the oak provides a nice comfy home for the bacteria. This is especially helpful for pediococcus which doesn't get started until after saccharomyces has wound down.
so like I said, I'm paraphrasing. Why would pedio need a nice comfy home to be "happy"? Just because it infiltrates wood does not mean that wood is required or even beneficial for its reproduction. Do you have a source that suggests this to actually be true, or is it more of a homebrewing myth?
 
I'm not trying to be difficult or take sides here at all, but does whether or not there is scientific proof that bacteria need or even like wood in/as the fermentation vessel matter all that much? To me I would want to use a barrel or oak cubes/staves/spirals or whatever just because it has been done that way for so many years and to me seems part of the character of the brew whether there is detectable "oak character" or not.

And once again not trying to be difficult, just an honest question because I'm not that familiar with this stuff: why can small barrels give you vinegar?

Thanks guys!
 
lowtones84 said:
I'm not trying to be difficult or take sides here at all, but does whether or not there is scientific proof that bacteria need or even like wood in/as the fermentation vessel matter all that much? To me I would want to use a barrel or oak cubes/staves/spirals or whatever just because it has been done that way for so many years and to me seems part of the character of the brew whether there is detectable "oak character" or not.

And once again not trying to be difficult, just an honest question because I'm not that familiar with this stuff: why can small barrels give you vinegar?

Thanks guys!

Smaller barrels can give you vinegar because they allow a lot more oxygen in through the wood, due to a higher surface area to volume ratio.
 
There’s a chart in wild brews that details the amount of Oxygen that diffuses through various vessels. A 40L home-brew keg comes in at about the same as a 200L commercial HDPE fermenter and just under 3 times that of a 300L wine barrel. So it’s actually not too bad. I’d be more concerned with sanitation. You’re going to want a used barrel for this, and you’ll want to make sure it doesn’t have an acetobacter infection.

As I mentioned before I’ve been using 12-gallon plastic fermenters, which are way more porous than a small keg and haven’t had a problem with oxidation. Knock on wood. Concern for oxidation is why I’m racking to stainless after the first year for the Geuze project though.


@dwarven_stout I’ll look around for a source but it’s most likely something I picked up in Microbiology back in college.
 
There’s a chart in wild brews that details the amount of Oxygen that diffuses through various vessels. A 40L home-brew keg comes in at about the same as a 200L commercial HDPE fermenter and just under 3 times that of a 300L wine barrel. So it’s actually not too bad. I’d be more concerned with sanitation. You’re going to want a used barrel for this, and you’ll want to make sure it doesn’t have an acetobacter infection.

Yeah, that's the trick. A barrel left to sit empty can pick up an acetobacter infection relatively quickly. A filled barrel can potentially go vinegary without having acetobacter present (brett *can* make acetic acid but the circumstances aren't all that well understood), but if you have any acetobacter present you need oxygen to produce acetic acid. That happens more in small barrels, as you pointed out.
 
I was fairly certain that Brett needed oxygen for the acetic metabolic pathways as well, no? I'd have to look up my notes and references to be 100% sure, though...
 
i think oldsock's comments in his blog about oxygen levels and funky math are kind of spot on, and should raise a little interest. I have full size barrels now, but have used 5 g ones in the past, and have not had vinegar beer. I do always top any head space whenever i open with an inert gas - nitro, argon, or co2- whatever i have a bottle of- but that really shouldn't protect the surface area of the beer in contact with the wood. I'm not sure what the difference is with wood, but when i make sauerkraut in my oak bucket, it always tastes better than when i use a ceramic crock. Same brine, same fermentation space, same cabbage- i do think there is something in the wood, though i may be unable to scientifically explain what it is. That being said- i'm sure great beer can be made in other ways as well- not everyone uses wood. I think my next vessel may be the stomach of sort of animal...
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2008/05/with-re-re-release-of-wyeasts-roeselare.html
 
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