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Old 06-14-2011, 04:00 AM   #11
weremichael
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That's really only true when it's young. All of my 100% brett beers eventually pick up that "brett" wild flavor. In my experience, Brett C starts very tropical fruity (without O2) and light fruit/tart (with O2), whereas Brett B starts spicy (without O2). I haven't tried Brett B with a lot of O2. All of those beers got a lager-sized pitch, fermented quickly down to ~78-84% attenuation with a clean finish, and over the course of 8-10 months got funky.
So how much oxygen are you putting into your fresh wort? Are you experimenting with direct oxygenation vs. pitching onto wort that hasn't been directly oxygenated?

If you are starting with the same yeast quantity, then it must be another matter, possibly autolysis. Brett. is known to feed off of dead yeast cells, so maybe that is what is going on. Could the funk be the result of the brett. feeding off of the dead yeast cells?

Also, how much oxygen is your beer getting throughout the fermentation process. I have ten month old Brett. L beers (same recipe and same process) that have been stored in glass (stopper) vs. better bottles (orange carboy caps). They taste very different. The better bottles have taken on some acetic qualities, while the glass carboys are much cleaner. I am very curious what has your brewing taught you?
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:27 AM   #12
aaronkaz
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DO NOT OPEN/SPONTANEOUS FERMENT AT THIS TIME OF THE YEAR!!!!!

Sorry to pound the caps, but I strongly discourage this idea. I actually brew a lot of sour/funky beers, I do mostly open fermentation, and have cultured wild/native brewing microbes. So, that is to say that I certainly embrace the concept and idea, but from both the standpoint of research and personal experience, you can get some ugly results.

Why?

Firstly, everyone should understand that ALL traditional "spontaneously" fermented beers are brewed in fall. Basically the most important thing to know is that warm temperatures promote excessive bacterial growth, and this is really bad when you're not pitching a cultured inoculate. In the cooler months of fall, there are more suitable yeasts for brewing available and bacterias are kept in balance.

I know you are pitching some brett, and you may think that the "wild" bacterias will be good in addition, but I assure you, they will more than likely ruin the beer. There is much more to pick up than lacto and pedio right now. The hot-temperature loving bacteria are acetobacter and others of the sort that will produce vinegar and other truly nasty flavors, even at just a day or two.

Those flavors can literally make you feel like your throat is burning.

A brewery local to me recently put out a beer that was "spontaneously" fermented with the second runnings from a dubbel. I don't know what the f* this brewer was thinking, but most sensible people would not think twice about throwing it away. I heard reactions like, "it feels like I just smoked a pack of cigarettes".

Anyway, aside from that, I like you're recipe. However, I would not call it Saison. If you want it to resemble a saison and dry out, go with the suggestions and use a primary saison yeast. Otherwise, you're just brewing an all brett beer. Maybe bring the hops back just a touch. I personally think over-hopped saisons are terrible, but I know some people are into it.

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Old 06-14-2011, 04:29 AM   #13
dwarven_stout
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So how much oxygen are you putting into your fresh wort? Are you experimenting with direct oxygenation vs. pitching onto wort that hasn't been directly oxygenated?
Basically, yes. Carboy shaking (good for ~5-6ppm O2) versus 60 seconds of pure O2. I plan to try a Brett C beer with 30s at the start and then 30s more a few days in to see if I can pump up the acidity. I got to chat with one of the guys from Surly a couple weekends ago, and they make a quite tart and refreshing all-brett beer using that basic process.


Quote:
If you are starting with the same yeast quantity, then it must be another matter, possibly autolysis. Brett. is known to feed off of dead yeast cells, so maybe that is what is going on. Could the funk be the result of the brett. feeding off of the dead yeast cells?

Also, how much oxygen is your beer getting throughout the fermentation process. I have ten month old Brett. L beers (same recipe and same process) that have been stored in glass (stopper) vs. better bottles (orange carboy caps). They taste very different. The better bottles have taken on some acetic qualities, while the glass carboys are much cleaner. I am very curious what has your brewing taught you?
It's possible it's autolysis. All of my all-brett beers have been bottled after about a month, and they definitely develop in the bottle. I use the Oxycaps, so I doubt they're getting much O2 while bottled.
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Old 06-14-2011, 04:41 AM   #14
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I personally think over-hopped saisons are terrible, but I know some people are into it.
Like the Belgians, for example.
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Old 06-14-2011, 03:20 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by aaronkaz View Post
DO NOT OPEN/SPONTANEOUS FERMENT AT THIS TIME OF THE YEAR!!!!!

Sorry to pound the caps, but I strongly discourage this idea. I actually brew a lot of sour/funky beers, I do mostly open fermentation, and have cultured wild/native brewing microbes. So, that is to say that I certainly embrace the concept and idea, but from both the standpoint of research and personal experience, you can get some ugly results.

Why?

Firstly, everyone should understand that ALL traditional "spontaneously" fermented beers are brewed in fall. Basically the most important thing to know is that warm temperatures promote excessive bacterial growth, and this is really bad when you're not pitching a cultured inoculate. In the cooler months of fall, there are more suitable yeasts for brewing available and bacterias are kept in balance.

I know you are pitching some brett, and you may think that the "wild" bacterias will be good in addition, but I assure you, they will more than likely ruin the beer. There is much more to pick up than lacto and pedio right now. The hot-temperature loving bacteria are acetobacter and others of the sort that will produce vinegar and other truly nasty flavors, even at just a day or two.

Those flavors can literally make you feel like your throat is burning.

A brewery local to me recently put out a beer that was "spontaneously" fermented with the second runnings from a dubbel. I don't know what the f* this brewer was thinking, but most sensible people would not think twice about throwing it away. I heard reactions like, "it feels like I just smoked a pack of cigarettes".

Anyway, aside from that, I like you're recipe. However, I would not call it Saison. If you want it to resemble a saison and dry out, go with the suggestions and use a primary saison yeast. Otherwise, you're just brewing an all brett beer. Maybe bring the hops back just a touch. I personally think over-hopped saisons are terrible, but I know some people are into it.
interesting... not really hot here yet, it'll be a game time decision. and yeah, i know it's not a saison, but i was going for most of the style and saisons are open for interpretation quite a bit...

how about a black dry brett...lol... thanks for the tips.
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Old 06-18-2011, 05:18 AM   #16
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I agree its a flexible style, but in my opinion, there are enough consistencies within the examples we get here in the states to define a guideline. As vague as it is, farmhouse style may be the umbrella that this fits under. I think soon enough, we're going to see American Farmhouse as a recognized style, and I certainly hope so as there's so many creative brewers (as yourself) who are creating some fantastic beers in this vein.

I do 5 gallon batches, but sometimes I'll brew 6 and use the extra gallon for experimentation. I would try that to start. If you haven't used brett or bacteria strains a lot, its really nice to isolate them a bit to get a feel for the flavors that each contribute. I would start small with the spontaneous stuff too. It takes a lot of experience before you can predict the results you'll get.

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Old 06-18-2011, 05:27 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by aaronkaz View Post
I agree its a flexible style, but in my opinion, there are enough consistencies within the examples we get here in the states to define a guideline. As vague as it is, farmhouse style may be the umbrella that this fits under. I think soon enough, we're going to see American Farmhouse as a recognized style, and I certainly hope so as there's so many creative brewers (as yourself) who are creating some fantastic beers in this vein.
Exactly what I was thinking. Saison's are really driven by the yeast strain, without some saison yeast in it, it just isn't a saison. I would like to see an all brett classification as well...100% brett beers like the OP's are something that have been quietly growing in the background of brewing for a number of years and it seems like its time to give them their credit.
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